User talk:Gez

Thanks!
Thanks for catching my error on the DoomEd nums for the ZDoom-compatible spawn and anchor points on the Polyobject article. I should have known, since EE supports the same DoomEd nums, but I was too lazy to double check and thought I knew from memory ;) --Quasar 17:16, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem. :) --Gez 17:23, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

James Haley (Quasar)
IIRC we have some precedent here for not redirecting bio articles to user profiles. Pages in the main space are theoretically supposed to adhere to some standards of "encyclopedic" content (NPOV, citing sources, good grammar). It is therefore not a great idea for a reader to click a link in an article and get a user page, which can say almost anything the editor feels like putting there. (This is *not* a statement about Quasar himself; we all know he is a good writer. :>   Ryan W 16:52, October 6, 2009 (UTC)

idgames template issue
I think something went wrong with your idgames template update: the "at Doomworld/idgames" part of the template doesn't seem to be displayed at all when the template is used. -- Janizdreg 21:43, February 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * This is annoying. It worked at first. Okay, I fixed it. It works now. I purged the page a couple of times after I was done just to be sure. --Gez 21:59, February 10, 2010 (UTC)

ZDoom version history and Strife support
Excellent work on the ZDoom version history so far, and thank you very much for writing it up. Now I'd just like to know if you left the initial addition of Strife support without an exact matching version number on purpose or not. That's the only thing in the list that didn't look quite right when I did a quick read-through. -- Janizdreg 04:12, February 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Because I don't know in which version it appeared. There's a date for when it happened, with Randy making a thread about having successfully played through the full game, but that's somewhere between 2.0.47 and 2.0.97. Likewise, I'd have liked to say in which version(s) Heretic and Hexen support were completed, but it's unclear. --Gez 09:03, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

Item mystery
Since you seem to have dug deeper into the code of the early Doom versions (specifically the Alphas), would you perchance happen to have any info as to what the mystery items are in map 11 of Doom 0.5? The ThingID is 2032; the items are strangely found in only one (1) map in the entire Doom series. Specifically in the "console room" of what later became Spawning Vats. A mystery it is. 128.214.133.2 15:27, March 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * I haven't looked at the code, just at the resources: the content of the wads, because I was adding support to the early graphic formats (among other things) to SLADE 3. If you know that 2030 is Flag Stand Marker, you already know more than me about the things. Looking at the exe in a hex editor, there's a lot of info that can be gained because it's there in plain text: the list of sprites, states, the names of data structures... But this doesn't shed much light on the issue, since presumably if the item doesn't appear, it's because it was already removed from the source. Among the sprites in the wad, a sparky thing can be found (SPARA0, SPARB0, SPARC0). It's one of the things that have no corresponding states apparently, like the barrels (of which there were several types). Maybe that? I haven't looked at the map format so I can't tell you much. --Gez 16:56, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

Ok, no prob. Cheers for the info. Eh, the 2030 item makes an appearance in Doom 0.4; it's just a marker and the sprite for it is FLG1/FLG2 (looks like the bottom part of the Wolfenstein 3D flag stand). Of course it's all conjecture, albeit somewhat educated conjecture. To be honest there's so precious little to go by regarding the pre-retail Doom versions that pretty much anything you come up with is authoritative. 82.181.90.65 21:12, March 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, I don't know if you will do anything with these, but here they are:

Alpha stuff, them is. 128.214.133.2 08:56, March 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'd tentatively suggest sparks. They could have been put in this room to indicate computer malfunction (electric arcs from the consoles). These sprites are not used by anything in this list. Not that we'll ever know for sure... --Gez 11:43, March 18, 2010 (UTC)

Stuff
Awesome work on the Doom 64 level descriptions, even though they're simple and don't contain map layouts and what not, I liked how you described the nature of each map. I may add the map layouts myself if I get around to it.

--Aldaraia 01:58, April 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * I did? Are you sure? --Gez 07:58, April 6, 2010 (UTC)

Marathon article
''WIKIA! That WYSIWYG interface you make people use by default is a DISASTER!''  Not only that &mdash; it is now impossible to log in unless javascript is enabled. Probably few users can edit from their phones now. Ryan W 23:06, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

Copyright conversation (ugh)

 * some people have reported that the full episode is available even in just the demo version, meaning that these instructions allow someone to play the new level on a PC despite not having bought it. Therefore, I think it is inappropriate . . .


 * Demos in XBLA contain the complete game, its just the license stored which disable the full version. So yes, you are able to extract the complete doom2.wad out of the demo. This counts for XBLA Ultimate Doom too.--Cybdmn 20:55, May 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * * sigh *  Clearly we all need to go back to 9600 baud modems, so that publishers aren't tempted to distribute extra material like this...    Ryan W 21:25, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

Do you suppose this reasoning also applies to the "leftover" maps in Chex Quest? (In theory, anyway; Chex Quest is pretty old.) I could have sworn we mentioned those in our article at one point, although it's not there currently. Ryan W 19:46, May 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd say so. Even though it's less relevant since now the way to get Chex Quest would be to get the Chex Quest 3 IWAD, which does not contain leftover Doom resources. --Gez 19:49, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

Succession templates
While your changes to the succession templates make sense for source ports, they effectively restrict use of the templates only to source ports, and this was not the intent when I added them. Indeed, they are used for multiple purposes on Wikipedia, for everything from lines of royalty to number 1 hit songs to record-holding athletes. This is why the wording was generic enough to be used for anything. Do we need a better solution to this, such that the text is parameterized? --Quasar 17:14, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well yeah, on Wikipedia it's used for a lot of things, but this here wiki is a lot more specific. I'm not sure what else it could be used for. Versions of maps? They tend to be on the same page (and even then, "based on" makes more sense). IRC channels? Not sure they really need a genealogy. The only potential use for preceded/succeeded here would be the people who were Cacowarded "Mappers of the Year" and, even there, it would be a bit silly I think. (Cacowarded maps already have a navbox template, and you can't really say that a single map is preceded by ten and succeeded by ten others.)
 * As generic as preceded/succeeded may seem, I think it's wrong in the context of source ports, because it automatically obsoletes those that were succeeded by one. I don't think one can say that Skulltag makes GZDoom obsolete for example. A succession would be more if it were, like royalty or best-selling hit songs, the most popular ports each year, and that's data we don't have (other than wild guesses based mostly on anecdotal evidence), and that's also not how it's been used for the moment. So yeah, sure, the text can be made a parameter, but I think it can wait until a use for that is found... --Gez 17:30, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

re: hexen trivia
I stand corrected, thanks. I thought the Mage had green blood because 1. the regular death, and 2. getting hit in gameplay seemed to produce green blood or flesh sometimes. Having actually looked through ripped sprites, you were right. In addition, I've found that the "death by fire" animation applies to all player sprites. I was misled because I could only seem to get that effect by using the bloodscourge against the bosses. Now that I've found more Hexen info online, I won't be misled by gameplay events.

I edited a bit more to make it read better in the new context. Xcalibur201 21:50, December 10, 2010 (UTC)

Looks like I stand corrected again, lol. I hadn't realized it was a palette translation instead of a different set of sprites. I'm not familiar with the technical side of these games, so you'll have to pardon me for issues like this. Xcalibur (talk) 03:53, 10 July 2016 (CDT)

Cleanup for "final leg" of new wiki
Hi Gez. It makes me sick to write this, because you have made a lot of great contributions here, but I am concerned about your recent series of edits.

I really, really, really, really think we should delay any large-scale content changes until *after* the site is fully open; we should do only what is necessary to get it online. Part of the wiki's mission has always been to avoid being just another gaming site, with endless confrontations between the sysops and the other members. Therefore, we must avoid the impression that admins have a privileged position in making content decisions. Deleting articles without discussion, especially, is guaranteed to create hostility.

Now, unfortunately, it may be that admins need to be more heavy-handed on the new site (without Wikia's protections against vandals and spambots). However, no discussion on that issue has yet occurred. In fact, as a content editor, I agree with all your changes and I encourage you to keep doing them when the community can actually choose to follow along and ask questions. Until then, though, can I possibly persuade you to hold off?

&mdash;User:Ryan W not logged in


 * If you want to know what's going on, I'm going through this and reviewing the pages in order. This allowed me to notice a few problems that are quickly fixed then I do so. If fixing an issue would take longer, I keep the page unreviewed. While I'd be fine with discussions before deletion and similar acts, the fact is that on this wiki, it just doesn't happen, unfortunately. --Gez 17:04, 13 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Hmmm, I'm divided. My bad for not checking the review log after reading your Doomworld posts.  I guess I can see reasons to kickstart this new feature now (provided people want it &mdash; again, no one has attempted to find out).  I still predict some backlash from people who feel like the revisions are faits accomplis.


 * I'm not seeing what you're seeing in those cleanup categories. When people participate, they work as intended.  Because we can't force people to volunteer their time, it's a slow process.  Even so, I could argue for decisive behavior in any of those cases *except* deletion, because non-admins have such a limited ability to disagree.    Ryan W 00:11, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Editor status to decrease the amount of your chores
Hey, Gez. Since you're the one who has approved the vast majority of my edits (76 out of 78, actually), I thought about suggesting the following on your talk page. To release more time for you to make new contributions, I could be given Editor status. For example, as you checked the 48 changes I made to upload the map data for Heretic's levels and also the edits that took place to get the thing stats added, you probably didn't check the factual accuracy of them but only trusted me that the data is correct and approved the edits only to get them published to everyone. And that's fine for I've checked by myself that there are no errors in the figures.

In case the previous is true, it could be easier for both you and me if I could check and thereby publish my future edits independently. Now when I need to make a few category changes for a couple of the map articles, it would be frustrating for you to make the approval process again and again for changes that are so slight. Then again, it could be rude from me to ask for the status for this sole purpose but if it's about that, I'm willing to do other Editor chores although my current contribution work here takes quite a lot of my time. You, or any other user more superior than me, will decide if the arguments for receiving the status are sufficient. --Jartapran 07:16, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Anons
Having fun deleting all those pages? I think it's about time that we make some kind of policy change because the spam is clearly out of hand. --Quasar 17:55, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not exactly fun, but since I made the "block" messages give a link to the nuke page, it's done with reasonably quickly. Given how formulaic these spambots are (they always do the same thing), I think there was merit in my earlier suggestion, because the wiki could then do the blocking automatically. --Gez 18:07, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * We need Manc's help in order to implement that extension. --Quasar 18:20, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Picked up a medikit that you REALLY need!
Sorry to bother but could you check the pending change there? Judging by the history, there has seemed to be a lot of fix edits, and I'm uncertain with the code. You do know about it so I'd appreciate your help. --Jartapran 09:45, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Umm, in case it's okay, could you give me Reviewer status too? I'd like to continue reviewing new edits regularly but these occurrences just keep on preventing me, sorry: --Jartapran 19:16, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * No, I cannot. I have no control over usergroups other than "Editor". --Gez 19:33, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * True, I should have checked the user rights log more carefully. Well, guess one of the admins then need to check the outdated reviewed pages every once in a while to review the quality edits. Just thought to suggest. Thanks anyway. --Jartapran 19:39, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * There's another pending code edit I'd like you to have a look at and solve if possible. Knowing about Vermil's editing habits, he might not give a response and even if he gave, I lack the knowledge to do decisions.


 * Not to rush, just when you have time. --Jartapran 18:06, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Demon speed bug
Good work, albeit wording may be too verbose, and including some code snippets might have been useful. Nevertheless, I'm glad you've paid attention. There's another thing. I had an account on the old wiki, and for certain reasons decided to register here anew. Can you merge these accounts together? (thus my edits will be autoconfirmed, I guess) --Unmaker 22:49, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * For any user-account business, only bureaucrats can do something. So, basically, go bug Quasar. --Gez 22:54, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Something you might want to see
User:GhostlyDeath/PortList GhostlyDeath 00:16, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Interesting. You've got a couple of mistakes in it, though: both a ZDoom and a ZDoom are listed, the one with a space doesn't work. Also, Smack My Marine Up should use the name SMMU. --Gez 10:42, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I was thinking of pretty much fully templated Port Information, i.e. have something like a . Do some crazy wiki ifdefs that basically search flags, so a page like that might say something like "limitremoving boom windows macosx linux dos" . Then a template would basically check to see if one of the flags exists in a page then possibly produces either Yes or No or some other wiki syntax for yes/no. Another thing is auto categorization, maybe something to the lines of  which just expands to something like "" This way the gigantic manually edited table of Doom becomes alot easier to maintain. Of course all the flag information would need to be added to ports. This would be insane template using though but could prove to be easily maintable (one change affects 5+ pages). GhostlyDeath 13:09, 20 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Small warning: using templates to read a lookup table can cause performance issues. (Undoubtedly the server was more powerful in 2006 too...)    Ryan W 15:55, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Map Info
I'm looking for utilities to report the information to fill out the Map Data and Things tables of map articles, but a preliminary search isn't turning up anything obvious. What would you recommend? --KMX E XII 00:44, 11 July 2012 (UTC)


 * It's something I've been wanting to add to SLADE 3 for a while; but in the meantime you could try DeePsea; I saw Jartapran credit it when inserting thing data for Heretic maps. --Gez 09:34, 11 July 2012 (UTC)


 * With a little work, WadSpy could be modified to output the Things in preformatted tables. I tried it myself but I didn't understand C very well.  :>


 * In any event, remember to count vertexes separately.   Ryan W 18:57, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Doom II
It requires a separate quality revision to get the change published,. I sincerely think the inconveniences of the quality flag system outweigh the possible benefits it has. We could do well enough with the checked status. --Jartapran 12:16, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Compression data edit / Speedrunners' achievements
Hello, Gez. I'd like to ask your opinion of two topics.

Could you give your word for this - I admit straight, that I'm unable to verify the content but it looks proficient enough to be true and I find it difficult to believe that such addition would be made with vandalism in mind. Thereby, I would publish it but not before knowing what your decision would be, especially as you've possibly dealt with this kind of material.

The second matter is about the updating process of map records. Some speedrunner articles, Jim Leonard (Xit Vono) and Henning Skogstø being prime examples, consist only of a few words. What crossed my mind was that once the demos have been checked to be up to date, with Doom, Doom II, Evilution and Plutonia being priorized, the speedrunner articles could have a table showing the relevant current records in some detail. Thus, here is a draft I wrote yesterday for Xit Vono's article, showing his Doom II records:

Doom II (MAP01 - MAP19 and MAP31 - MAP32, verified so far)
 * width="6%" valign="top" |
 * width="6%" valign="top" |
 * width="6%" valign="top" |
 * width="6%" valign="top" |
 * width="6%" valign="top" |
 * width="6%" valign="top" |
 * width="6%" valign="top" |
 * width="6%" valign="top" |

Is this a completely bad idea? I mean, the information is already present on the level articles and also on the run articles (UV speed, NM speed etc.) but not on the author pages. Briefly, the wiki provides level-based, run-based but not author-based data. But do we need the last one? Your opinion is appreciated. --Jartapran 19:59, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The Jaguar Doom thing is legit. As for the speedrunner pages, it doesn't seem like a bad idea. Mod authors have their accomplishments listed on their page, so why not speedrunners? The only thing behind that it's one more page to maintain; e.g. if someone releases a new map, this won't make Paul DeBruyne (skillsaw) no longer the creator of Lunatic; but if there's a new record on a map made by someone different from the previous record-holder, the map article and both speedrunners' pages must be updated to reflect this. --Gez 20:11, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * For the record it was I who wrote the Jaguar Doom stuff. I just forgot to log-in. --Blzut3 21:25, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * This doesn't surprise me in the slightest. :) --Gez 21:30, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I've examined fx's Compet-N site more carefully, and it seems the incoming folder is the local recent changes. If new demos really come at such a slow pace, I don't see a problem with the extra work the author-based data would cause. I'll re-design the tables when its topical as those above really aren't the most editor-friendly ones. --Jartapran 00:32, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I've re-checked E1M7 as well and found nothing dubious. Could you move the changes from the draft to the published page?

Server error
http://doomwiki.org/w/extensions/FlaggedRevs/client/flaggedrevs.js?66 is forbidden (HTTP 403). 46.236.164.111 06:08, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * There is pretty much nothing I can do about that, though. User:SpiderMastermind is the one with actual access to the files and their rights. --Gez 11:22, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for table fix
I was just thinking what an eye sore the table was on the Engine bugs in Strife article, without any cell borders. Had no idea what to do about it though. --Quasar 06:55, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
 * No problem. The prettytable template contains a class= parameter already, which was being overridden by adding another after it to make it sortable. That's why there's the prettySortable template. --Gez 21:30, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Please explain
Why did you remove my addition of 3DO music file names from Doom music? SiPlus 16:53, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It didn't look complete (songs 5, 6, and 11 were the only one you listed) and such information should rather be on a separate "3DO Doom music" page IMO. --Gez 17:02, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I added all songs except for 3 (14, 15 and 29) now. A new page would be too much, the 3DO soundtrack is mostly the same as Doom soundtrack, just higher quality. SiPlus 15:13, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Extremely specific rules in AbuseFilter
I feel it's best to hold off on creating extremely specific filters in AbuseFilter for the reason that almost all spam bots use fuzzy logic to avoid simple filtering, until a very firm pattern has been noticed in multiple attacks. We can leave the new one be and see if it accumulates any hits, but I have a feeling that most of the time it's only going to increase article commit time. Each rule is run for every edit action taken on the wiki, and, in addition, the AbuseFilter system places a hard cap on the total number of conditions that will be evaluated before it just lets the rest fly through. This means that the more active rules that exist that don't match something, the more ineffective the system will become.

At the least I'd anticipate having to modify the rule you created to match based on regexps rather than on literal strings. I've seen the "Test, just a test" summary message used before, but not always with that specific body text. Just a heads up and some explanation on why use of the system needs to be done as conservatively as possible. Appreciate all your efforts on the wiki. --Quasar 15:30, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I've seen the "Test, just a test / Hello. And Bye." thing verbatim dozens of times on several different MediaWiki installations. This particular bot has no fuzzy logic. Though I guess its visits are infrequent enough not to warrant a rule. --Gez 16:39, 3 December 2013 (UTC)


 * That sounds good enough to me, then. Let's wait and see if it catches some of these things :) --Quasar 18:29, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Block
Don't you think that's a bit harsh? Some of this guy's edits were not detrimental. Did I miss some edit warring? I can't seem to catch up with the recent changes list. Being wrong isn't a reason to ban; being persistently wrong and refusing to defer is. --Quasar 17:37, 1 January 2014 (UTC)


 * You know on second thought after reading a couple more of them in the log, maybe he does need a chill pill for a couple days. --Quasar 17:41, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * It was just a short temporary block, though I've reduced it further. Feel free to remove it entirely if you prefer. --Gez 17:47, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

PC Speaker Sounds
Hey, I left you a privmsg on Doomworld Forums with some info that wasn't really appropriate to link from the wiki. --Quasar 15:15, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that was interesting. --Gez 16:27, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Ref in templates
It just doesn't seem to work, at all. I don't think the Cite MediaWiki extension runs in the proper order with regard to template evaluation for it to work. --Quasar 18:06, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I tried a couple of tricks that could have delayed evaluation of the ref tag in the template until inclusion in the page, but neither of them worked, and as I said in my last edit comment, I have no further idea. It was worth trying it while there's only one page that use the template though! --Gez 18:15, 5 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Forgot to ever let you know I found the solution to this problem. By using what's called the equivalent magic word for the parser tag extension (which all such tag extensions have as an equivalent), you can get this sort of delayed evaluation. Instead of a normal ref tag, you have to use the equivalent invocation. The only complication is that the way that arguments are passed is also changed to the template style, rather than HTML attribute style. Thought this would be useful for you in the future, maybe. --Quasar (talk) 08:21, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Blight
You're probably confused why I checked that revision; I thought that the issues you complained about were being addressed by it. I'll admit to hitting that button too fast. Is the article in a proper state at this point versus the actual gameplay? I haven't played DKotDC for over a year so, I don't remember the layout of the hubs down to the directions and which key opens what (nor do I have time to find out right now >_> ) --Quasar 23:16, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Edit warring and spamming
Feel free to block people if they are destroying the site. My previous questioning of a block you did was by no means a blanket statement on your judgment on such matters. --Quasar 15:31, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Grammar
I see you have made this edit. Was my edit really wrong? --Kyano 16:51, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * It wasn't your edit that was really wrong so much as the original phrasing. "Than" is used for comparison of an attribute. "The cacodemon is larger than the imp." "The new BFG is more powerful than the old." You'd use "than" with different if you were using different in the : "the Doom 3 version of the BFG is more different from its original than the Doom 3 version of the chainsaw." Saying something is different, however, isn't making a comparison on a specific attribute, so it isn't a comparative use. It's not "more different" or "less different" or "as different as". Difference needs a from because it establishes a deviation, a separation. You'd say something is different from something else in the same way you'd say it deviates from sth or it is separated from sth. Some people think that "different than" is acceptable but it just sounds very clunky to me, so I changed it. Even people who accept "different than" as valid accept "different from" as valid too, so you could say it is the safest choice. It was a minor edit anyway. --Gez 18:53, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the English lesson! :-) --Kyano 19:58, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Machine Gun move
Oh wow, thanks so much for fixing this. I got a similar idea after Kyano brought up the capitalization issue on IRC, but I would have done it slower and left unnecessary detritus. :>    Ryan W 16:25, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The previous Machine gun page had some history that I didn't want to lose, so the best thing to do was to swap Machine Gun and Machine gun around. And since there's no page swap feature, the only way to do that was with a temporary page. Shame that preventing the creation of a redirect is apparently a right reserved to bots (search for suppressredirect here).
 * Thank you both. --Kyano 17:49, 3 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Just as a footnote, that list can be changed (many groups on Wikipedia have suppressredirect), but it's not clear how we would gather consensus for a particular arrangement. The discussion would consist entirely of "this is very boring, who cares" alternated with "I WANT EVERY FLAG NOM NOM NOM".  During the fork, for some reason Quasar refused to unilaterally implement the configuration I'd scribbled on the back of an envelope.  :D     Ryan W 18:11, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Just for the record, I want every flag nom nom nom. :p --Gez 18:18, 3 April 2014 (UTC)


 * To be clear, we're talking about giving Administrators suppressredirect? Or something else? I have no problem with admins having that capability, seems like a natural rights assignment that ought to be the default to me. --Quasar 19:11, 3 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, and I thought it *was* the default until I tried that image renaming crap the other day. :7


 * During the migration you said you would prefer these changes not be made piecemeal, but as part of an overall reorganization. We couldn't get any wider conversation going though, so the issue eventually went into hibernation.    Ryan W 19:17, 3 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I put that tangent on E1M6.

Renaming pages
Hi. Good idea renaming Unused Doom music, however I wanted to draw attention to the way you did it. It's bad practice to rename a page by copying and pasting the page contents, because it means that the history of the page gets lost. Instead, it's better to rename using the "Move" function of the wiki as this preserves the history.

There's some more info on Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Moving_a_page if you're curious. Fraggle (talk) 20:21, 3 July 2014 (UTC)


 * The problem here was that the other page had a history too. Forcing a redirect would have erased it. --Gez (talk) 20:28, 3 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Right, so the histories have to be merged, as described at that link. (See also How to fix cut-and-paste moves.)  If this is not done, the missing history should at least be linked on the talk page or in an edit summary, or we are violating our license attribution requirements.    Ryan W (talk) 00:12, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

RE: People Category
Alright, I thought there were people missing from it for some reason. Feel free to undo my additions to the People category. --Minigunner 7:00, 23 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Nobody could blame you. It's one of those things that has been "in progress" for several years now. The sheer volume of articles means only a few get changed over to the new subcategory system at a time; I'd say the vast majority still include directly as a category. I think I already fixed all the ones you edited, though. --Quasar (talk) 08:54, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Please see...
Template talk:Dw3dd --Quasar (talk) 08:08, 19 October 2015 (CDT)

SVE and demos
Strife: Veteran Edition does not really support demo recording or playback. Although the respective functions are still present, they were not updated for any of the changes to input capabilities and so would generate broken files. We didn't have any time to dedicate to it. I figured it would be the kind of thing that the community could address if they were to ever make their own fork of the codebase. Thought the clarification would be useful. --Quasar (talk) 11:45, 12 January 2016 (CST)
 * Makes sense. --Gez (talk) 12:27, 12 January 2016 (CST)

Block durations
I think we should keep IP block durations for vandalism and the such finite in length as we usually did before, as these are likely to be dynamic IPs. The offender might have a new one next week, while another would-be unrelated user suddenly finds themselves banned for no apparent reason. The recent use of permanent range blocks has been done judiciously based on geographic location versus Google's statistics on where actual contributors to this site come from (ie., Anglosphere nations, Western Europe, and a vanishingly small contribution from ISP ranges in Russia, primarily - *not* China, India, or the Ukraine) --Quasar (talk) 02:35, 22 February 2016 (CST)
 * Sorry, going for a permaban has been a question of muscle memory more than deliberate thought. But don't we have a few Ukrainians, such as entryway? --Gez (talk) 03:38, 22 February 2016 (CST)

Map info (redux)
There's an old topic that's inconclusive, so: what are nowadays the recommended tools to collect data for the MapData and Things tables? I use DeePsea (v12.15.2) for the MapData (Check -> Level Statistics) but in comparing my figures with the ones you added in the opening edit of Tech Gone Bad, all my categories are 1 higher (so 569 things, 3340 vertices, etc). What could be the reason for that difference? SLADE3 doesn't appear to have a statistics feature (or I haven't found it). Thinking that your method was probably right, I deducted 1 from DeePsea's numbers when entering the data for Phobos Mission Control, but later realized it would be more useful to figure out which numbers are accurate. A quick comparison with E1M1 and MAP01 gives me the same numbers as on their pages. And what is the correct way (or usable tool) to find the total number of vertices (4571 in your TGB table)? When I look in the WAD directory in SLADE3 at the VERTEXES lump, it's 18288 bytes or 4572 entries - also 1 higher.

Secondly, what tool is currently used to collect Things data? I tried WadWhat but its included .exe doesn't run in my 64-bit Command prompt, I don't have a C-compilation environment on Win7 (I'm a Linux guy), and the .c file doesn't compile right off the bat on Linux (haven't dug into that yet).

Lastly, different topic but a quick request: could you look at Doom Wiki:RFC/Maptabs template whether the change works for you? Hoping to progress that RFC into closure. --Xymph (talk) 07:06, 29 April 2016 (CDT)
 * The last thing is thing #568 and I probably just forgot to add one to take into account how the first thing is thing #0. Just a dumb oversight on my part.
 * As for collecting thing data, Jartapran is using DeePsea for that. I agree SLADE needs a function, but I'm stuck on how to present the data in a concise, useful, and exhaustive way taking into account the need for such a function to take into account more than vanilla Doom maps. Let me detail a bit the bigger problem: there are three main game modes (single player, coop, deathmatch) which can have different things spawned on the map (via Boom's "not coop" and "not DM" flags that complement vanilla's "not single" flag; as well as in Hexen or ZDoom maps you have instead the "single", "coop", and "dm" flags); then you add for Hexen how different things spawn depending on the class (e.g. you'll meet more afrits playing as a wizard, and more ettins playing as a fighter); and then you look how ZDoom allows to have up to 16 different skill levels and 16 different player classes, creating a matrix of 256 different combinations just for single player. All these considerations are superfluous when you just need to cover Doom-format maps, obviously.
 * Finally, on the tab issue, I really don't have anything to say. My objection for consistency is not a veto. --Gez (talk) 07:53, 29 April 2016 (CDT)


 * Sorry for butting in, but this should be mentioned also. Embryonic, but full of potential IMO (including generation of complete map outlines).  I've been a DeePsea fan for a decade, but it doesn't export the stats or customize them much, in addition to Gez's points.  When updating a group of pages, I've always tried other tools.    Ryan W (talk) 14:12, 1 May 2016 (CDT)


 * No need to be sorry, since late March you don't butt in enough. ;) Funny you mention this link now. After concluding that no suitable tools apparently exist to fill in those Map_skel sections, I decided to create one. But my Python experience is just rudimentary enough to update the drawmaps script, creating a new one from scratch seemed a little far-fetched. Also, a (probably) little-known function of my DMPSMU utility is to A[analyze] a map and print a whole bunch of statistics, thus I already have most of the necessary C code ready. So last Saturday I started by updating my old tools to run on modern OSes (like 64-bit Linux & Windows cmd), and then began on a new DMMPST (MaP StaTistics) utility. It will include the ability to output the complete Wiki code for the Mapdata and Things tables (including Heretic). Other features may come later.
 * I could abort it (as it's not far beyond a DMTXLS fork yet) and contribute to jmickle's project instead, but again I'm not familiar enough with Python (and Github) to be effective there, and Python tools are considered less accessible than a straightforward executables. Anyway, a few questions:
 * - What exactly do you mean by "complete map outlines"?
 * - What "other tools" (if any) did you find useful for "updating a group of pages"?
 * I understand your point about DeePsea, manually typing numbers from one window into another is cumbersome and a little error-prone. And it's only last Friday that I accidentally discovered that clicking on the initial stats pop-up will page through further pop-ups with Thing counts etc. which must be that Gez was referring to that Jartapran is using. To me, this is another example of too much knowledge about contributing to the Wiki being hidden in people's heads. These details should be in the Help or Guidelines sections, IMO.
 * Being an old-school Doomer :) I wasn't really aware of the complexities that ports add to the Thing flags, much less the difficulty/class system (I don't see that mentioned on the ZDoom page or the features list on their site, either). But presenting detailed information about that isn't just a problem in the SLADE3 GUI, it also is on wiki pages. So I'll ignore that area, at least until a viable approach to it has been developed. --Xymph (talk) 08:25, 2 May 2016 (CDT)


 * IMO the SLADE development and the utilities are both significant and useful, and one doesn't preclude the other. As a non-programmer, I do realize I'm getting something for nothing &mdash; I always appreciate programmers' labor and don't take it for granted, especially since the more they release, the more demands the community makes.


 * By complete map outlines I mean that jmickle's code also implements map skel. In theory, it could be expanded to include other "procedural" information in a map article, e.g. secret sector numbers and hash sums.


 * Other programs I've used include WadSpy, WadWhat, DMPSMU, and whatever else is in the . Possibly only the first resulted in wiki edits; I remember cropping some of the framing text and recompiling with djgpp, for faster copypasting.  (No doubt any programmer would snicker at that, but I guess I figured if I didn't add the information, it might never be done.  Again the topics were outside the millennial mainstream.)


 * I partly agree with Quasar in the other thread, in that a SLADE addition is most useful to the most potential contributors. With due respect to the SLADE team, however, I assume it will not include all these batch-mode features because that's not its scope.  We've had many editors who aren't programmers but can certainly use a command line; hypothetically, given a mature version of one of these projects, I could write a shell script to generate stubs for a year's worth of Cacowards in an afternoon.  The flip side is that a programmer is needed for maintenance, or else we accumulate slightly sloppy edits at high speed, which someone then has to clean up.    Ryan W (talk) 22:41, 2 May 2016 (CDT)


 * Hypothetically speaking, if it were proven to work ahead of time, I could even automate it with User:QueryBot. --Quasar (talk) 09:49, 3 May 2016 (CDT)


 * I looked at all those tools too and none provide the exact info (no more, no less) needed here in the right layout. Given the amount of manual labor in using any of them, I thought a better tool would have been created years ago and I just hadn't found it. That's true for jmickle's script then, were it not for its embryonic state. Btw, it already does include the secret sectors in its output. Not sure what hash sums you refer to though – I see those listed only for whole IWADs, not individual levels.
 * I see now that having a tool generate entire map skels is useful to create new map entries, but just the statistics section would do for existing ones. Either way, the desired structure and layout needs to be (reasonably) finalized before any tool is put into use, so this depends on the outcome of Gez's topic.
 * Batch-wise output indeed doesn't seem to gel well with a GUI-based tool like SLADE3, but that's for Gez (and sirjuddington) to decide. Meanwhile I could take one of two avenues for a command-line tool: further develop either jmickle's script – since he doesn't seem active enough to do it himself – or my proposed DMMPST utility. The latter I envision to work with external templates, so that a change in layout of a table or the entire skeleton doesn't immediately require recompilation – though adding/changing fields still would. Usability and accessibility are important considerations if either tool is to get widely adopted. Python scripts are less easy to use on Windows than executables, but it is possible to convert the former into the latter (jmickle did that a few times). For me on Linux however, that's a rather convoluted process.
 * Note that adding Hexen & Strife support to either tool would already be a major challenge for me, ZDoom/UDMF support would probably be a bridge too far. SLADE3 definitely has the edge there.
 * Overall, both the SLADE3 guys and me working on tools with identical results would be a waste of our combined resources. I'm not hell-bent on my own development, so if SLADE3 can be made to produce the desired output then that's fine too.
 * So, thoughts on the direction of development, anyone? --Xymph (talk) 06:35, 5 May 2016 (CDT)


 * The lack of feedback prompted me to continue development of my DMMPST tool, which is now already more capable than the doomwiki-map-template Python script (no offense intended). Discussion of the ongoing effort can be followed here, and I welcome assistance from one or several DoomWiki regulars (especially RyanW, wiki-break notwithstanding ;)) to expand it into covering as many statistics-related DoomWiki needs as feasible. The main area to work on would probably be the Things table, but I'm also considering to add appearance statistics such as these. --Xymph (talk) 09:39, 31 July 2016 (CDT)

Ongoing Q&As
Maybe you've been busy outside the wiki, but previously answers came pretty quickly upon my questions, sometimes after a reminder. So here's another one to help me resolve the ongoing general discussion, specifically my Aug 16 bulleted questions, and the most recent ordering/naming questions. Please don't let the threads fall idle until we're done. ;) Thanks. --Xymph (talk) 17:00, 24 August 2016 (CDT)

Wad template
Thanks for fixing this little problem. It would help if Template:Wad contained descriptions of its parameters, for example like Template:Cite_web, including which category is enabled by which type parameter. Could you add this? --Xymph (talk) 16:40, 13 October 2016 (CDT)