Talk:Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom

Just to make things clear, the map may be called for instance "Z1M1: Hangar", but it's actually in MAP13 so its article name should begin with MAP13 otherwise it'll get categorized as a non-standard slot when in fact it is a perfectly vanilla-compatible standard slot. Also there are four extra levels without gameplay. MAP01 is there just to tell to warp to MAP13 to start the game, but MAP21/22/23 provide a fitting epilogue to the silliness of the KDiKDiZD story. --Gez (talk) 14:39, 17 November 2022 (CST)

"Real Gameplay"
What the heck does "real gameplay" even mean? Such a remark doesn't seem particularly useful, nor remotely objective. Perhaps it should state they are narrative maps? --Altazimuth (talk) 20:13, 18 November 2022 (CST)
 * I think they mean that the mod doesn't affect the other levels and doesn't provide gameplay changes to them. Even if so, it is poorly phrased. 114.181.187.148 02:50, 19 November 2022 (CST)
 * There's the lilith MAP33 precedent of just not making articles for maps that are there just to tell the player something, like the MAP01 here. The text file itself says:

New levels             : 13 (9 playable)
 * ergo, 4 "non-playable" levels. But sure, if you prefer to call them epilogue or narrative maps, that's a better fit for the last three. --Gez (talk) 04:04, 19 November 2022 (CST)


 * When it's just as much or more effort to start a talk page about it you may consider just being ; we don't bite. At least not very often :) --Quasar (talk) 16:33, 19 November 2022 (CST)

Custom things mapping table
0	3025	Zombieman (no ammo drop)	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Custom monsters 0	3010	Rapid fire trooper	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Custom monsters 0	3013	Suicide bomber	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Custom monsters 0	3011	Chaingunner	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Custom monsters 0	3014	Shadow	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Custom monsters 0	3006	Lost soul	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Trivia 0	3015	Soul harvester	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Custom monsters 0	3019	Mauler	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Custom monsters 0	3016	Dark imp	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Custom monsters 0	3022	Nightmare demon	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Custom monsters 0	3020	Wargrin	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Custom monsters 0	3017	Dark caco	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Custom monsters 0	3023	Soul reaper	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Custom monsters 0	3012	Hell knight	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Custom monsters 0	3021	Hell warrior	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Custom monsters 0	3018	Bruiser	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Custom monsters 2	2004	Flare rifle	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Custom weapons 3	17	Flare ammo	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Custom items 5	2027	Pushable Berserk	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Custom items 5	6002	Seismic bomb	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Custom items 6	38	Orange key	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Custom items 6	39	Green key	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Custom items 6	40	Silver key	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Custom items 7	7	Resurrector	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Trivia 7	50	Explosion Generator	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Technical 7	73	Crushable Script Helper	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Technical 8	6001	Seismic timed explosion (Megasphere)	Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom#Custom items
 * 1) class thing	wikiname	wikilink

This is just a first draft, as i'm not sure if i've done this correctly. I used the names from deh and ordered them from lowest health to highest and in case of equal health alphabetically. What is the class number for items? There is a special berserk pack that is used alongside the regular one (thing 2027 - Pushable berserk). There is also the Spiderdemon that is used in Z1M8 as an invisible dehacked thing (Resurrector) that flies through the room at lightning speed and resurrects one dead monster each before dying. This shouldn't be listed in the actual table since you can't see those things and they can't be shoot or killed anyhow. But obviously they shouldn't be counted as normal Spiderdemons in the map either. And there's also the special type of Zombieman in Z1M8 that get resurrected by said resurrectors and don't drop clips. They should be counted with the regular Zombiemen. How should this be written in the table? --Gregor (talk)


 * All classes and thing types supported by DMMPST are in this table. The TSV should be sorted by class first; within each class whatever makes sense (monsters by HP, indeed). There should be one tab between columns, not multiple nor spaces. A vanilla type number that should be removed from the things table can be assigned to class 8 (or 9 in Heretic/Hexen). Distinct type numbers always get distinct rows and cannot be combined with other rows automatically. Sign talk posts like this. --Xymph (talk) 04:22, 23 November 2022 (CST)
 * Ok, i revised the table according to your outlines. Because of the one tab spacing it does look pretty messy now, but i guess it's not important since it is supposed to be machine-readable first and foremost. Just so i understand it, a ~ under wikilinks signifies that there is no entry for this thing as of yet, right? Gregor (talk) 05:36, 23 November 2022 (CST)
 * No, tilde uses the thing's name as the link, like for lost soul. No text in the link column prevents a link (but the third tab must stay). Also, if a section is anchored, like Custom items, it must exist (or I'll get a complaint from listDeadAnchors once the entry is used). If a separate section is not meaningful, like for custom ammo for a custom weapon, just link to the weapons section or keep the link empty. --Xymph (talk) 08:02, 23 November 2022 (CST)
 * I updated the info. Could you give some feedback if this is correct in terms of format now? Someone in the DW thread said they wanna make a section in the article concerning the different mapping tricks for vanilla, so I'm still waiting for this to be added because i could then add and link a couple more things to the list. Once complete, i'll make an extra post here with the finished table, but i'm just a bit freaked out about how messed up the spacing between columns looks now. --Gregor (talk) 17:49, 23 November 2022 (CST)
 * It's not messed up, just a proper TSV, and it looks fine. The 6001 entry isn't really needed as it's a non-standard type number, but it is good to keep it as documentation. --Xymph (talk) 02:59, 24 November 2022 (CST)
 * I assume by "non-standard type number" you mean that it's ignored by whatever program you feed this into. I thought adding the megasphere (6001) as class 8 is necessary so that it doesn't get counted in map13, as it's not supposed to be seen as a separate entity from the seismic bomb you pick up (6002). ---Gregor (talk) 04:11, 24 November 2022 (CST)
 * Uh, see "All classes and thing types supported by DMMPST are in this table." above. Read the DMMPST article for a better understanding. Type numbers not in that table are not defined in vanilla/port engines, so not listed in Things tables unless defined in the TSV under an included class (0,2-7 for Doom). Conversely, a custom type number that shouldn't be in the Things table therefore doesn't need to be in class 8, but it doesn't hurt either. --Xymph (talk) 04:22, 24 November 2022 (CST)


 * I get it now. See, I was just confused by the fact that the megasphere (83) was given a new DoomEd type number in the DEH lumb but not a new DEH thing number (it's still identified as thing 63, which is the megasphere). I don't have the DoomEd type numbers memorized, so i assumed that 6001 was its default number for that. Makes sense that it doesn't need to be included in the table if DMMPST identifies things through there DoomEd numbers. I'll keep it in there for documentation like you said. ---Gregor (talk) 08:04, 24 November 2022 (CST)

The TSV table is now complete as far as i'm concerned. i checked every entry again. Ready for use. :)