Editing Talk:E6M2 (Heretic)

I'm confused. Who came up with the names for these maps, where can I find a citation to these "fan-made" names, and how are these maps deathmatch-only when there are monsters and an exit? Surely a deathmatch-only map should be mostly unplayable in non-deathmatch modes, correct? -Wagi [[User:69.51.157.227|69.51.157.227]] 18:07, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

: Good questions. If they are playable there is no need to conclude they are for DM. No idea where the names came from... unless someone can come up with a good explanation we might as well move them to [[E6M1 (Heretic)]], [[E6M2 (Heretic)]], and [[E6M3 (Heretic)]]. <small>[[User:Who is like God?|Who is like God?]] 19:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)</small>

:: I'm not sure where the names came from as I just duplicated the names from the list of levels on the main [[Heretic]] page as well as the reference that the names were fanmade. There certainly is no way to get to these levels other than through a warp cheat and there is no exit to the last level. The DoomViewer map viewer I'm using shows the level title as simply "Deathmatch Level". I'm not sure if it's pulling that name from the WAD or just filling that name in. Here's a reference to the names of E6M2 and E6M3 in a [https://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/file/562682/36537 Heretic FAQ] as well as who named them. Note it names E6M1 simply "Offices". According to this {{archived link|http://www.ravengames.com/heretic/heretic-shadow/insider.php|interview|https://archive.is/SHMhn|archive.is}}, E6M1 is loosely based on the Raven Software offices and so the coining of the name "Raven's Lair". I also find references on the web to E6M2 being called "Ruined Temple" presumably based on a comment in that interview. That FAQ also references that these were intended to deathmatch levels and then later sorta contradicts itself by saying that Raven intended to create more episodes. (Implying that this might be an unfinished episode) [[User:Hwlester|Hwlester]] 00:37, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

:::With that in mind, I'd leave them nameless (as '''E6M1 (Heretic)''', &c), say that the game does not provide names, and add this name "Raven's Lair" to the description. It's more relevant because one of the Raven guys mentioned it, but it's not "official" because it's not in the game itself. It doesn't say whether Sailor Scout (a fan community map author) had any concrete sources, either (were this clear it would have been made explicit since it could have validated them in some way). I'd put the name by the Raven guy on the intro of the article ("called ''Raven's Lair'' by Michael Raymond-Judy") and the FAQ names as "trivia" lower down. <small>[[User:Who is like God?|Who is like God?]] 01:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)</small>

::::Works for me. Looking back at the modifications for the Heretic page where I pulled these names from, it looks like the first references to these levels were added by Draconia on April 29, 2005. The notes about them appearing to be an unfinished episode were added by an anonymous user at 75.72.163.158 and modified to indicate that they were multiplayer maps by Ducon, both on February 8, 2007. The trivia about E6M1 looking like the Doom deathmatch was added on August 29, 2007 by an anonymous user at 83.9.164.164 and cleaned up a couple of times that same day. Finally, the fan-made names were added on February 11, 2008 by an anonymous user at 86.149.132.3. It's kind of amazing that those names have been out there for almost three months without anyone noticing considering how fast my edits have been getting noticed. I'm trying to help get the information on it as accurate and up to date as I can. Guess my editing is stirring some renewed interest in the game. :) [[User:Hwlester|Hwlester]] 03:00, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

::::Also, do we want to follow the same convention for Episode 6? Since "Fate's Path" is an unofficial name, move the page to something like "Episode 6 (Heretic)" and note the same sort of thing about the unofficial names, etc. Also, the FAQ I linked to earlier indicates that these three levels appear in the pre-Shadow of the Serpent Riders HERETIC.WAD as E4M1-E4M3. I'm not able to confirm that at this moment. I might be able to scratch up a copy of the original 3 episode Heretic 1.2 somewhere, from the olden days, but my installation media is Shadow of the Serpent Riders. If we can confirm that, it should probably be mentioned on these pages as well. [[User:Hwlester|Hwlester]] 15:12, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

:::::Yeah, "Episode 6 (Heretic)" would be reasonable. The FAQ says American's map is accessible by warping to 4 1, and indeed, v1.0 and v1.2 contain it as E4M1. <small>[[User:Who is like God?|Who is like God?]] 17:54, 6 May 2008 (UTC)</small>

::::::Guess I misread the FAQ. Good to have another set of eyes looking at it. :) So E4M1 in 1.0 and 1.2 are the same as E6M3 in 1.3, but E6M1 and E6M2 are new to 1.3? I need to pull down wHeretic as well. The FAQ says it contains an entry for Episode 6 and I'd like to see how it handles the names and note it in the articles. So, are you going to move these pages based on your suggestions or would you like me to? [[User:Hwlester|Hwlester]] 18:05, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

:::::::I moved the level articles, although someone should still update the contents a bit. And now that I think about it, maybe the E6 article is pointless, because the episode itself doesn't really exist. They are only extra levels accessible through warping in the unmodified game. Maybe we could turn the article into a redirect to [[Heretic]] itself (where the bonus levels should be mentioned). There isn't anything to say about them, except separately and individually, as there are no intermission screens or texts related to them. <small>[[User:Who is like God?|Who is like God?]] 18:28, 6 May 2008 (UTC)</small>

::::::::Strange, it says it moved the talk page, but your last comment went on the old page not the new one. I've copied that comment over and marked the old talk for deletion. I downloaded wHeretic and it indeed shows a sixth episode as "Fate's Path" and the level names as "Offices", "Water Shrine", and "American's Legacy". BTW, I think I'll stick with Doomsday and jHeretic... ;) I'll start working on the articles. As far as the "Episode 6 (Heretic)", I'm wondering if we should go with something more along the lines of "Bonus Levels (Heretic)" since it's not a true episode. If you complete E6M1, you go to E6M2, and then onto E6M3. E6M3 is 'truly' a deathmatch level as that's what it was designed for and it has no exit. Let me know what you think and I'll alter the episode 6 main page and the level templates accordingly. [[User:Hwlester|Hwlester]] 03:57, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

::::::::Alright, I've corrected all of the links and edited the titles in the Heretic main page, in the episode page and in the level template. I've fleshed out the articles a bit although I'm sure it's not exactly what you had in mind. Feel free to reorganize the info a bit. I'd still like a little guidance about the best way to handle the episode title as well. [[User:Hwlester|Hwlester]] 05:32, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

== Deathmatch? ==

The E6 header on the episode listings calls these "deathmatch only levels" but for E6M2 I'm not entirely convinced that that's the case.  Tight passages, switch hunting, and a rather sensible (if not entirely up to par with the main levels) progression for single player seem to suggest it could have been an SP level.  On the other hand, there are some DM-ish elements like multiple instances of a weapon, the unassumingly tucked-away exit and shortcuts that can be opened up to travel around the level more effectively.  Still, I wouldn't be surprised at all if this was a rejected / extra level originally meant for the main SotSR episodes, or even one of the rejects from the original level set that Michael Raymond-Judy hinted at, maybe with some tweaks for better DMing. Thoughts?  Inside info? -- [[User:ETTiNGRiNDER|ETTiNGRiNDER]] ([[User talk:ETTiNGRiNDER|talk]]) 15:08, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
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	The E6 header on the episode listings calls these "deathmatch only levels" but for E6M2 I'm not entirely convinced that that's the case. Tight passages, switch hunting, and a rather sensible (if not entirely up to par with the main levels) progression for single player seem to suggest it could have been an SP level. On the other hand, there are some DM-ish elements like multiple instances of a weapon, the unassumingly tucked-away exit and shortcuts that can be opened up to travel around the level more effectively. Still, I wouldn't be surprised at all if this was a rejected / extra level originally meant for the main SotSR episodes, or even one of the rejects from the original level set that Michael Raymond-Judy hinted at, maybe with some tweaks for better DMing. Thoughts? Inside info? -- [[User:ETTiNGRiNDER\|ETTiNGRiNDER]] ([[User talk:ETTiNGRiNDER\|talk]]) 15:08, 28 April 2015 (UTC)		The E6 header on the episode listings calls these "deathmatch only levels" but for E6M2 I'm not entirely convinced that that's the case. Tight passages, switch hunting, and a rather sensible (if not entirely up to par with the main levels) progression for single player seem to suggest it could have been an SP level. On the other hand, there are some DM-ish elements like multiple instances of a weapon, the unassumingly tucked-away exit and shortcuts that can be opened up to travel around the level more effectively. Still, I wouldn't be surprised at all if this was a rejected / extra level originally meant for the main SotSR episodes, or even one of the rejects from the original level set that Michael Raymond-Judy hinted at, maybe with some tweaks for better DMing. Thoughts? Inside info? -- [[User:ETTiNGRiNDER\|ETTiNGRiNDER]] ([[User talk:ETTiNGRiNDER\|talk]]) 15:08, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
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−	: I believe one of the Raven devs mentioned that this was in fact a reject, possibly from E5 given its water theme, that was considered too laborious with the switch hunting and was thrown in as a bonus. It's definitely not very good for deathmatch. Good luck finding a citation for that at this point though, a lot of those interviews are only on archive.org now, which has no text search function. --[[User:Quasar\|Quasar]] ([[User talk:Quasar\|talk]]) 18:21, 28 April 2015 (UTC)