Editing Talk:Valiant From DoomWiki.org Warning: You are not logged in. Your IP address will be recorded in this page's edit history. Anti-spam check. Do not fill this in! ==Map templates== [[Special:Contributions/Spectra|User:Spectra]] has recreated all the map templates for Valiant. I did, however, already generated [[Template:Valiant E1 - A Different Breed|them]] in March this year. Whose ones should be kept?--[[User:MtErebus|MtErebus]] ([[User talk:MtErebus|talk]]) 12:15, 3 November 2016 (CDT) :Comparing both, I prefer yours. --[[User:Gez|Gez]] ([[User talk:Gez|talk]]) 13:26, 3 November 2016 (CDT) Sorry, I didn't saw those. Because nobody made a Valiant level page, I thought nobody created a template. Yours is really better. [[User:Spectra|Spectra]] ([[User talk:Spectra|talk]]) 14:10, 3 November 2016 (CDT) : Your templates on the other hand provide the full navigation for maps of the entire wad, while mine require switching onto other episodes' templates to find a map in the corresponding episode.--[[User:MtErebus|MtErebus]] ([[User talk:MtErebus|talk]]) 15:06, 3 November 2016 (CDT) :: IMO this is a strong point, and one reason we've handled megawads that way for years (examples: [[Template:Alien Vendetta 21-30|1]], [[Template:Perdition's Gate 12-20|2]], [[Template:Eternal Doom 31-32|3]], and basically everything else [[:Category:Navboxes for map articles|here]]) Of course it's OK to propose improvements, but is something actually wrong with the current approach? One click takes you to the next related article. [[User talk:Ryan W|Ryan W]] (''[[Special:PermaLink/113430|usually gone]]'') 11:14, 12 November 2016 (CST) :::Counterpoint: [[:Template:Knee-Deep in the Dead|Ultimate Doom]], [[:Template:City of the Damned|Heretic]], [[:Template:Seven Portals|Hexen]]. Most Doom II megawads don't have a strong episodic theme; but when episodes are clearly defined (and Valiant certainly does) it makes sense to have episode names in the navboxes. --[[User:Gez|Gez]] ([[User talk:Gez|talk]]) 09:01, 28 November 2016 (CST) :::: Yes it does, but why not have the best of both approaches? I find not having the full numeric navigation annoying, as it indeed requires an extra click via the episode page to get to the next map. And as you may have noticed, I've been clicking through whole megawads a lot lately. ;) Also, most user-created episodic megawads won't have their own episode pages like the stock levels, and linking from main space to template space doesn't feel right to me in this situation, nor very useful. :::: Instead, I tried the approach from Perdition's Gate that Ryan already linked to, and [[Template:Strife-Entity|Strife's approach]]. [https://doomwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User:Xymph/Sandbox&oldid=126016 My current sandbox] shows Valiant E2 both ways, and each with the various font size combinations that we need to reach sufficient consensus on as well. Keep in mind that Valiant is a short WAD name, longer ones make things look differently too. :::: If Quasar could be so kind :) as to [[User talk:Quasar#To-do list|create the necessary CSS classes]] in the Common and Mobile style sheets, then I can apply those and we can all examine them on desktop and mobile platforms before making choices, too. --[[User:Xymph|Xymph]] ([[User talk:Xymph|talk]]) 12:14, 28 November 2016 (CST) ::::: Okay then, counter-counter-counterpoint: [[:Template:Inferno|Ultimate Doom]], [[:Template:The Dome of D'Sparil|Heretic]], [[:Template:Castle of Grief|Hexen]]. ;) --[[User:Gez|Gez]] ([[User talk:Gez|talk]]) 10:27, 29 November 2016 (CST) :::::: No, sorry, you lost me; what ''is'' your point? A one-liner of stock episodes, of which I've already said that I don't consider them directly comparable to the Doom II-based megawads that we're trying to sort out, while not agreeing or disagreeing with any of my arguments or proposals, does nothing to advance this discussion IMHO. No wonder the pace here is sometimes labeled as glacial. ;-P :::::: Do you really think linking to a template is useful and informative? Or do you expect every such episode to get its own stub page? Wouldn't that fragment or repeat the small amount of info too much? The [[:Category:Navboxes for episodes|only ones]] I see for user wads are for [[Knee-Deep in the Dead (Doom the Way id Did)|DtWiD]] which makes sense because of that WAD's goal of mimicking Doom (1). For Doom II user episodes I'd rather link back to the [[Demonfear#Into Darkness (Demonfear 2)|episode anchor]] in the overview page than a template. (That means turning the [[Valiant]] and [[Ancient Aliens#Levels|Ancient Aliens]] episode headers into subsections, but that would be trivial.) :::::: Yes, you've already [[Doom Wiki:Central Processing#Navbox template font size?|given your font preference]], but that's not the only aspect to finalize. Wiki users looking at Doom II wads are accustomed to have all the maps one click away, as RyanW also observed, so why not keep that feature for episodic wads via one of the sandboxed layouts (or yet another one)? --[[User:Xymph|Xymph]] ([[User talk:Xymph|talk]]) 16:29, 29 November 2016 (CST) ::::::: Okay, to be less obscure, here's an example of what I meant. Using your G sample because it was the last and therefore easy to copy-paste. {| {{prettynavbar}} !<div style="font-size: larger">[[Valiant]] levels</div> |- !<div style="font-size: smaller"><div style="text-align: center">'''A Different Breed'''</div> * [[MAP01: Bad Reception (Valiant)|01]], [[MAP02: No Rush (Valiant)|02]], [[MAP03: Tiers of Pain (Valiant)|03]], [[MAP04: Moonlit Stroll (Valiant)|04]], [[MAP05: Aggrovator (Valiant)|05]], [[MAP06: Engineering Disaster (Valiant)|06]], [[MAP07: The Mancubian Candidate (Valiant)|07]]</div> |- |<center>'''Abattoir of Thy Madness'''</center> * [[MAP08: Bushwhacked (Valiant)|MAP08: Bushwhacked]] * [[MAP09: 14 Angrier Archviles (Valiant)|MAP09: 14 Angrier Archviles]] * [[MAP10: Candlecove (Valiant)|MAP10: Candlecove]] * [[MAP11: Yesterday's Insanity (Valiant)|MAP11: Yesterday's Insanity]] * [[MAP12: Bane Capitol (Valiant)|MAP12: Bane Capitol]] * [[MAP13: The Netweaver (Valiant)|MAP13: The Netweaver]] |- !<div style="font-size: smaller"> <div style="text-align: center">'''Meet the New Corruption'''</div> * [[MAP14: Implosion (Valiant)|14]], [[MAP15: Screams aren't a crime... yet (Valiant)|15]], [[MAP16: Toxic Traverse (Valiant)|16]], [[MAP17: Precipice (Valiant)|17]], [[MAP18: Crush Depth (Valiant)|18]], [[MAP31: Cyberwar 7734 (Valiant)|31]], [[MAP32: Ghosts of the Old Kingdom (Valiant)|32]] <div style="text-align: center">'''Thou Art Annihilation'''</div> * [[MAP19: The Popes of Roam (Valiant)|19]], [[MAP20: Swept into Immolation (Valiant)|20]], [[MAP21: Skindustrial Zone (Valiant)|21]], [[MAP22: Spiraling Into Nether (Valiant)|22]], [[MAP23: Genocide Motor (Valiant)|23]], [[MAP24: None More Merciless (Valiant)|24]] <div style="text-align: center">'''New Moon, Old Grudge'''</div> * [[MAP25: The Eagle Has Landed (Valiant)|25]], [[MAP26: Blast Wave (Valiant)|26]], [[MAP27: Rocket Zone II (Valiant)|27]], [[MAP28: A Lightbridge Too Far (Valiant)|28]], [[MAP29: Red Shift (Valiant)|29]], [[MAP30: Electric Nightmare (Valiant)|30]] </div> |} Something kinda like that. (Relative font sizes being a different bikeshedding matter.) Or I could see something javascripted where the other episodes are collapsed but can be opened. --[[User:Gez|Gez]] ([[User talk:Gez|talk]]) 17:28, 29 November 2016 (CST) : Alright, that's a nice "another one", it gets my vote... structure, font sizes and all. Also, collapsed stuff is a no-no for me in this box. '''Edit''': on second thought, for consistency with the non-episodic navboxes and to reduce visual clutter, I'd ditch the bullets and commas on the other episodes: {| {{prettynavbar}} !<div style="font-size: larger">[[Valiant]] levels</div> |- !<div style="font-size: smaller"><div style="text-align: center">'''A Different Breed'''</div> [[MAP01: Bad Reception (Valiant)|01]] [[MAP02: No Rush (Valiant)|02]] [[MAP03: Tiers of Pain (Valiant)|03]] [[MAP04: Moonlit Stroll (Valiant)|04]] [[MAP05: Aggrovator (Valiant)|05]] [[MAP06: Engineering Disaster (Valiant)|06]] [[MAP07: The Mancubian Candidate (Valiant)|07]]</div> |- |<center>'''Abattoir of Thy Madness'''</center> * [[MAP08: Bushwhacked (Valiant)|MAP08: Bushwhacked]] * [[MAP09: 14 Angrier Archviles (Valiant)|MAP09: 14 Angrier Archviles]] * [[MAP10: Candlecove (Valiant)|MAP10: Candlecove]] * [[MAP11: Yesterday's Insanity (Valiant)|MAP11: Yesterday's Insanity]] * [[MAP12: Bane Capitol (Valiant)|MAP12: Bane Capitol]] * [[MAP13: The Netweaver (Valiant)|MAP13: The Netweaver]] |- !<div style="font-size: smaller"> <div style="text-align: center">'''Meet the New Corruption'''</div> [[MAP14: Implosion (Valiant)|14]] [[MAP15: Screams aren't a crime... yet (Valiant)|15]] [[MAP16: Toxic Traverse (Valiant)|16]] [[MAP17: Precipice (Valiant)|17]] [[MAP18: Crush Depth (Valiant)|18]] [[MAP31: Cyberwar 7734 (Valiant)|31]] [[MAP32: Ghosts of the Old Kingdom (Valiant)|32]] <div style="text-align: center">'''Thou Art Annihilation'''</div> [[MAP19: The Popes of Roam (Valiant)|19]] [[MAP20: Swept into Immolation (Valiant)|20]] [[MAP21: Skindustrial Zone (Valiant)|21]] [[MAP22: Spiraling Into Nether (Valiant)|22]] [[MAP23: Genocide Motor (Valiant)|23]] [[MAP24: None More Merciless (Valiant)|24]] <div style="text-align: center">'''New Moon, Old Grudge'''</div> [[MAP25: The Eagle Has Landed (Valiant)|25]] [[MAP26: Blast Wave (Valiant)|26]] [[MAP27: Rocket Zone II (Valiant)|27]] [[MAP28: A Lightbridge Too Far (Valiant)|28]] [[MAP29: Red Shift (Valiant)|29]] [[MAP30: Electric Nightmare (Valiant)|30]] </div> |} --[[User:Xymph|Xymph]] ([[User talk:Xymph|talk]]) 05:13, 30 November 2016 (CST) : The updated episodic navboxes are in place and the duplicates removed. This topic has been [[Doom Wiki:Central Processing/2016#Navboxes wrap-up|wrapped up]]. --[[User:Xymph|Xymph]] ([[User talk:Xymph|talk]]) 04:13, 18 January 2017 (CST) == Custom monster mapping == I've added to [[DMMPST]] the ability to specify a list of thing translations so that custom things like monsters can be correctly represented in the Things tables it generates. For [[Scythe 2#Monsters|Scythe 2]] compiling that list was easy, but for Valiant I'm not sure my list is complete and correct. I've examined the DEHACKED and SLADECFG lumps in Valiant.wad in tandem with the [[Valiant#Custom monsters|descriptions here]], but I suspect the latter are incomplete. However, I'm not familiar enough with DHE to be certain. For example, DEHACKED specifies Thing 25 (the Commander Keen slot) to be the Arachnotron, and Thing 61 (the computer map) to be a Big Brain in MAP13? The hassle of converting DHE Thing numbers to Thing type IDs complicates matters a bit. Can someone familiar with Valiant and/or DEHACKED help me out to verify or amend my mapping? Here's what I have so far (TSV format): <pre> # class thing wikiname wikilink 2 2002 Super chaingun Valiant#Custom weapons 0 84 Heavy weapon dude ~ 0 72 Arachnotron ~ 0 2045 Spider mastermind ~ 0 2026 Romero's head ~ 0 3001 Super imp Valiant#Custom monsters 0 3002 Super demon Valiant#Custom monsters 0 3003 Super mancubus Valiant#Custom monsters 0 69 Pyro Knight Valiant#Custom monsters 0 7 Cybruiser Valiant#Custom monsters 0 888 Arachnorb Valiant#Custom monsters 0 36 Lightning orb Valiant#Custom monsters 0 23 Suicide bomber Valiant#Custom monsters 0 44 Super vile Valiant#Custom monsters 0 43 Ghost arch-vile Valiant#Custom monsters 0 54 Ghost revenant Valiant#Custom monsters </pre> (Class 0 = Monsters, 2 = Weapons; thing type = DoomEd number)<br/> --[[User:Xymph|Xymph]] ([[User talk:Xymph|talk]]) 13:22, 20 December 2016 (CST) : I've generated the pages with the above custom Things. If anyone provides additions/corrections as yet, I can always regenerate the Things tables. --[[User:Xymph|Xymph]] ([[User talk:Xymph|talk]]) 04:13, 18 January 2017 (CST) ::Updated table with MAP32's shadow monsters. You can see them in the DEHACKED lump on lines 142 ({{c|Thing 91 (Archvile)}}) and 213 ({{c|Thing 127 (Revenant)}}). As the [[DeHackEd]] page shows, Thing 91 is normally "Grey Tree" (aka "Short Grey Tree" in SLADE, "Gray tree" in UDB, and TorchTree in ZDoom) and Thing 127 is normally Large Tree (aka "Large Brown Tree" in SLADE, "Large brown tree" in UDB, and BigTree in ZDoom). --[[User:Gez|Gez]] ([[User talk:Gez|talk]]) 05:24, 14 January 2020 (CST) ::: Based on the [[User talk:46.0.16.244#Valiant thing corrections by 46.0.16.244|additions and corrections]] the new mapping file is: <pre> # class thing wikiname wikilink 2 2002 Super chaingun Valiant#Custom weapons 0 84 Heavy weapon dude ~ 0 72 Arachnotron ~ 0 2045 Spider mastermind ~ 0 2026 Romero's head ~ 0 7 Suicide bomber Valiant#Custom monsters 0 3001 Super imp Valiant#Custom monsters 0 3002 Super demon Valiant#Custom monsters 0 888 Arachnorb Valiant#Custom monsters 0 54 Ghost revenant Valiant#Custom monsters 0 43 Ghost arch-vile Valiant#Custom monsters 0 3003 Cybruiser Valiant#Custom monsters 0 69 Pyro knight Valiant#Custom monsters 0 23 Super mancubus Valiant#Custom monsters 0 36 Lightning orb Valiant#Custom monsters 0 44 Super vile Valiant#Custom monsters </pre> ::: I've now also ordered the custom monsters by hit points, as with the original monsters. If no other changes emerge from further discussion, I'll let DMMPST update all Things tables. --[[User:Xymph|Xymph]] ([[User talk:Xymph|talk]]) 08:08, 14 January 2020 (CST) Summary: All contributions to DoomWiki.org are considered to be released under the CC BY-SA 4.0 International (see Doom Wiki:Copyrights for details). By contributing, you agree to be bound by the Terms of Use. Your changes will be visible immediately. Please enter a summary of your changes above. Do not submit copyrighted images or text without permission! This includes text taken from in-game codices or logbooks, or from official instruction manuals, strategy guides, and other such books. This project is not affiliated with id Software, Raven Software, ZeniMax Media, Bethesda SoftWorks, or any other commercial software developer or publisher. Use of trademarked logos and other protected intellectual property is solely for the purpose of analysis and critical commentary on the identified products and associated fan community activity, and does not imply any endorsement by any of these organizations or their employees, past or present. Upload images to the wiki. Don't forget to categorize pages! For testing, please use a sandbox. View this template Cancel | Editing help (opens in new window) Templates used on this page: Template:C (edit) Template:Prettynavbar (edit)