From DoomWiki.org Warning: You are not logged in. Your IP address will be recorded in this page's edit history. Anti-spam check. Do not fill this in! ==Map info (redux)== There's an [[User_talk:Gez#Map Info|old topic]] that's inconclusive, so: what are nowadays the recommended tools to collect data for the MapData and Things tables?<br/> I use DeePsea (v12.15.2) for the MapData (Check -> Level Statistics) but in comparing my figures with the ones you added in the opening edit of [[Tech Gone Bad]], all my categories are 1 higher (so 569 things, 3340 vertices, etc). What could be the reason for that difference? SLADE3 doesn't appear to have a statistics feature (or I haven't found it). Thinking that your method was probably right, I deducted 1 from DeePsea's numbers when entering the data for [[Phobos Mission Control]], but later realized it would be more useful to figure out which numbers are accurate. A quick comparison with [[E1M1]] and [[MAP01]] gives me the same numbers as on their pages.<br/> And what is the correct way (or usable tool) to find the total number of vertices (4571 in your TGB table)? When I look in the WAD directory in SLADE3 at the VERTEXES lump, it's 18288 bytes or 4572 entries - also 1 higher. Secondly, what tool is currently used to collect Things data? I tried [[WadWhat]] but its included .exe doesn't run in my 64-bit Command prompt, I don't have a C-compilation environment on Win7 (I'm a Linux guy), and the .c file doesn't compile right off the bat on Linux (haven't dug into that yet). Lastly, different topic but a quick request: could you look at [[Doom Wiki:RFC/Maptabs template]] whether the change works for you? Hoping to progress that RFC into closure. --[[User:Xymph|Xymph]] ([[User talk:Xymph|talk]]) 07:06, 29 April 2016 (CDT) :The last thing is thing #568 and I probably just forgot to add one to take into account how the first thing is thing #0. Just a dumb oversight on my part. :As for collecting thing data, [[User:Jartapran|Jartapran]] is using [[DeePsea]] for that. I agree SLADE needs a function, but I'm stuck on how to present the data in a concise, useful, and exhaustive way taking into account the need for such a function to take into account more than vanilla Doom maps. Let me detail a bit the bigger problem: there are three main game modes (single player, coop, deathmatch) which can have different things spawned on the map (via Boom's "not coop" and "not DM" flags that complement vanilla's "not single" flag; as well as in Hexen or ZDoom maps you have instead the "single", "coop", and "dm" flags); then you add for Hexen how different things spawn depending on the class (e.g. you'll meet more afrits playing as a wizard, and more ettins playing as a fighter); and then you look how ZDoom allows to have up to 16 different skill levels and 16 different player classes, creating a matrix of 256 different combinations just for single player. All these considerations are superfluous when you just need to cover Doom-format maps, obviously. :Finally, on the tab issue, I really don't have anything to say. My objection for consistency is not a veto. --[[User:Gez|Gez]] ([[User talk:Gez|talk]]) 07:53, 29 April 2016 (CDT) : Sorry for butting in, but [https://github.com/jmickle66666666/doomwiki-map-template this] should be mentioned also. Embryonic, but full of potential IMO (including generation of complete map outlines). I've been a DeePsea fan for a decade, but it doesn't ''export'' the stats or customize them much, in addition to Gez's points. When updating a group of pages, I've always tried other tools. [[User:Ryan W|Ryan W]] ([[User talk:Ryan W|talk]]) 14:12, 1 May 2016 (CDT) :: No need to be sorry, since late March you don't butt in enough. ;) Funny you mention this link now. After concluding that no suitable tools apparently exist to fill in those Map_skel sections, I decided to create one. But my Python experience is just rudimentary enough to update the drawmaps script, creating a new one from scratch seemed a little far-fetched. Also, a (probably) little-known function of my DMPSMU utility is to A[analyze] a map and print a whole bunch of statistics, thus I already have most of the necessary C code ready. So last Saturday I started by updating my old tools to run on modern OSes (like 64-bit Linux & Windows cmd), and then began on a new DMMPST (MaP StaTistics) utility. It will include the ability to output the complete Wiki code for the Mapdata and Things tables (including Heretic). Other features may come later. :: I could abort it (as it's not far beyond a DMTXLS fork yet) and contribute to jmickle's project instead, but again I'm not familiar enough with Python (and Github) to be effective there, and Python tools [[User_talk:Xymph#Image_size|are considered]] less accessible than a straightforward executables. Anyway, a few questions: :: - What exactly do you mean by "complete map outlines"? :: - What "other tools" (if any) did you find useful for "updating a group of pages"? :: I understand your point about DeePsea, manually typing numbers from one window into another is cumbersome and a little error-prone. And it's only last Friday that I accidentally discovered that clicking on the initial stats pop-up will page through further pop-ups with Thing counts etc. which must be that Gez was referring to that Jartapran is using. To me, this is another example of too much knowledge about contributing to the Wiki [[User:Xymph/Map views|being hidden]] in people's heads. These details should be in the Help or Guidelines sections, IMO. :: Being an old-school Doomer :) I wasn't really aware of the complexities that ports add to the Thing flags, much less the difficulty/class system (I don't see that mentioned on the ZDoom page or the features list on their site, either). But presenting detailed information about that isn't just a problem in the SLADE3 GUI, it also is on wiki pages. So I'll ignore that area, at least until a viable approach to it has been developed. --[[User:Xymph|Xymph]] ([[User talk:Xymph|talk]]) 08:25, 2 May 2016 (CDT) ::: IMO the SLADE development and the utilities are both significant and useful, and one doesn't preclude the other. '''As a non-programmer, I do realize I'm getting something for nothing''' — I always appreciate programmers' labor and don't take it for granted, especially since the more they release, the more demands the community makes [https://bitbucket.org/Blzut3/ecwolf/issues?status=new&status=open&sort=created_on]. ::: By ''complete map outlines'' I mean that jmickle's code also implements {{tl|map skel}}. In theory, it could be expanded to include other "procedural" information in a map article, e.g. secret sector numbers and hash sums. ::: Other programs I've used include WadSpy, WadWhat, DMPSMU, and whatever else is in the {{wp|Self storage#Self storage today|storage unit}}. Possibly only the first resulted in wiki edits; I remember cropping some of the framing text and recompiling with djgpp, for faster copypasting. (No doubt any programmer would snicker at that, but I guess I figured if I didn't add the information, it might never be done. Again the topics were [[The Deimos Subway|outside the millennial mainstream]].) ::: I partly agree with Quasar in the other thread, in that a SLADE addition is most useful to the most potential contributors. With due respect to the SLADE team, however, I assume it will ''not'' include all these batch-mode features because that's not its scope. We've had many editors who aren't programmers but can certainly use a command line; hypothetically, given a mature version of one of these projects, I could write a shell script to generate stubs for a year's worth of Cacowards in an afternoon. The flip side is that a programmer ''is'' needed for maintenance, or else we accumulate slightly sloppy edits at high speed [https://doomwiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jmickle&oldid=106371], which someone then has to clean up. [[User:Ryan W|Ryan W]] ([[User talk:Ryan W|talk]]) 22:41, 2 May 2016 (CDT) :::: Hypothetically speaking, if it were proven to work ahead of time, I could even automate it with [[User:QueryBot]]. --[[User:Quasar|Quasar]] ([[User talk:Quasar|talk]]) 09:49, 3 May 2016 (CDT) :::: I looked at all those tools too and none provide the exact info (no more, no less) needed here in the right layout. Given the amount of manual labor in using any of them, I thought a better tool would have been created years ago and I just hadn't found it. That's true for jmickle's script then, were it not for its embryonic state. Btw, it already ''does'' include the secret sectors in its output. Not sure what hash sums you refer to though – I see those listed only for whole IWADs, not individual levels. :::: I see now that having a tool generate entire map skels is useful to create new map entries, but just the statistics section would do for existing ones. Either way, the desired structure and layout needs to be (reasonably) finalized before any tool is put into use, so this depends on the outcome of [[Doom Wiki:Central Processing#Map thing statistics|Gez's topic]]. :::: Batch-wise output indeed doesn't seem to gel well with a GUI-based tool like SLADE3, but that's for Gez (and sirjuddington) to decide. Meanwhile I could take one of two avenues for a command-line tool: further develop either jmickle's script – since he doesn't seem active enough to do it himself – or my proposed DMMPST utility. The latter I envision to work with external templates, so that a change in layout of a table or the entire skeleton doesn't immediately require recompilation – though adding/changing fields still would. Usability and accessibility are important considerations if either tool is to get widely adopted. Python scripts are less easy to use on Windows than executables, but it is possible to convert the former into the latter (jmickle did that a [https://github.com/jmickle66666666/mapinfo-gen/tree/master/dist few] [https://github.com/jmickle66666666/wallpaint/tree/master/dist times]). For me on Linux however, that's a rather [https://milkator.wordpress.com/2014/07/19/windows-executable-from-python-developing-in-ubuntu/ convoluted process]. :::: Note that adding Hexen & Strife support to either tool would already be a major challenge for me, ZDoom/UDMF support would probably be a bridge too far. SLADE3 definitely has the edge there. :::: Overall, both the SLADE3 guys and me working on tools with identical results would be a waste of our combined resources. I'm not hell-bent on my own development, so if SLADE3 ''can'' be made to produce the desired output then that's fine too. :::: So, thoughts on the direction of development, anyone? --[[User:Xymph|Xymph]] ([[User talk:Xymph|talk]]) 06:35, 5 May 2016 (CDT) ::::: The lack of feedback prompted me to continue development of my DMMPST tool, which is now already more capable than the doomwiki-map-template Python script (no offense intended). Discussion of the ongoing effort can be [[User:Xymph/DMMPST|followed here]], and I welcome assistance from one or several DoomWiki regulars (especially RyanW, wiki-break notwithstanding ;)) to expand it into covering as many statistics-related DoomWiki needs as feasible. The main area to work on would probably be the [[Doom Wiki:Central Processing#Map thing statistics|Things table]], but I'm also considering to add appearance statistics [[Gargoyle#Appearance statistics|such]] as [[Mystic Urn#Data|these]]. --[[User:Xymph|Xymph]] ([[User talk:Xymph|talk]]) 09:39, 31 July 2016 (CDT) Summary: All contributions to DoomWiki.org are considered to be released under the CC BY-SA 4.0 International (see Doom Wiki:Copyrights for details). By contributing, you agree to be bound by the Terms of Use. Your changes will be visible immediately. Please enter a summary of your changes above. Do not submit copyrighted images or text without permission! 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