From DoomWiki.org Warning: You are not logged in. Your IP address will be recorded in this page's edit history. Anti-spam check. Do not fill this in! == id logo removal == Hello Ryan, I'm concerned for the removal of the id logo in [https://doomwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Id_Software&curid=12117&diff=90802&oldid=88284 this edit of yours]. I think the inclusion of that logo there is covered by the definition of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use fair use] and, if that's not the case, the logo should be completely removed from the wiki. --[[User:Kyano|Kyano]] 23:45, 15 March 2014 (UTC) : Hi Kyano. Fair use is not a property of an image, but of a particular ''situation'' where the image appears. For example, a newspaper might place the logo of a university next to a sports score, but not in the margins of articles every time an alumnus is mentioned, as that would almost always be unrelated to the content. A more topical example is using a screen shot [[:File:Invulnerability-colormap-bug.png|to illustrate a bug]], on a page about the bug. Using the same screen shot as the background of my user page would not be fair use, being entirely decorative and irrelevant to the wiki's purpose, but that doesn't invalidate the first case; they are considered separately (see the second bullet under "Common misunderstandings" in your link). : Regarding the id logo, I believe that copyrighted images should not be used when we can make essentially the same point with text alone. Using the logo in [[id Software]] serves the main purpose of the article by helping to identify the subject, similar to the sports score example (which is not to say we couldn't be sued, but logos are routinely used this way on Wikipedia with its far stricter image policies). Putting the logo in the template does not serve the main purpose of the template by helping the reader find the desired article, any more than text alone would do, so it seems unnecessary to assume the additional risk. : Obviously, unless we end up in court someday, all we have on this issue are opinions, including my own. If you or StoneFrog or anyone else disagrees, I'm not sure what the next step is. I have researched copyrights myself only because I can't afford to hire an attorney on the site's behalf, and I think the Doom community is generally [[PDA|appallingly sloppy]] about copyrights, based on (apparently) the idea that we will never have a major incident because we have never had one before. Maybe I'm wrong though... if we could manage to hold a thorough discussion about fair use on the wiki, including some of the port maintainers who have to deal with it all the time during development, I'd certainly abide by whatever guidelines came from that. To date, such discussions have always fizzled out. Therefore, each of us (meaning everybody, not admins) just takes their best guess as to what will help the project. : I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. [[User:Ryan W|Ryan W]] 01:51, 16 March 2014 (UTC) :: I preferred having the logo myself, it looks naked now. I don't think it was a problem. --[[User:Quasar|Quasar]] 03:56, 16 March 2014 (UTC) :: Thank you Ryan for this explanation. I'm not in the position of choosing what should and what shouldn't be in this wiki, even though I personally think there was no problem, it's better to play safe. "''I think the Doom community is generally [[PDA|appallingly sloppy]] about copyrights, based on (apparently) the idea that we will never have a major incident because we have never had one before.''" Yes, but we now have Bethesda. --[[User:Kyano|Kyano]] 10:17, 16 March 2014 (UTC) ::: Well, I'm not in that position either; no single person is (sorry if sounded like I was overruling you). The problem is, this is one of the few issues where our collective choices aren't the final word on the matter, because the real world can intervene. We could have a unanimous vote that our current situation was OK, but that wouldn't change the case law, or Zenimax/Bethesda's plans (as far as I know, neither is at all interested in a relationship with the community, e.g. [https://www.doomworld.com/vb/source-ports/56289-zenimax-issue-takedown-of-js-doom-port/]). [[User:Ryan W|Ryan W]] 15:23, 16 March 2014 (UTC) As far as fair use goes, the image is on the wiki anyway. Removing it from a template does not change this fact, so it doesn't mitigate the risk. The id template is semantically strongly associated to id Software, so it isn't a misleading or gratuitous use of the image. Finally, even in the extremely unlikely case where id or zenimax objected to the presence of this image in the template, they'd start with a cease & desist rather than going directly to a lawsuit. To be honest, that change seemed very unnecessary to me. But I am also not sure about the rest of the change (removing {{[[Template:prettynavbar|prettynavbar]]}} and nesting a table inside the table); none of the other navboxes look like this. --[[User:Gez|Gez]] 15:40, 16 March 2014 (UTC) : My research suggests the inclusion of the logo falls far within the bounds of trademark (not copyright) fair use for corporate logos. If there is consensus, I am in favor of restoring it. --[[User:Quasar|Quasar]] 15:56, 16 March 2014 (UTC) :: Yeah, the trademark issue should be OK either way, because we haven't modified the logo and we only use it as part of documenting the real company and its products, not in promoting our site or someone's personal project. I suppose Zenimax could theoretically ask us to use the current logo instead. [[User:Ryan W|Ryan W]] 16:30, 16 March 2014 (UTC) : Gez, I was hoping you'd see this discussion since it takes me forever to figure out template formatting. :> I'd have rewritten it as an HTML table, only that seems to slow MediaWiki down (IIRC you and others have also objected to those as being hard to maintain). : ''the image is on the wiki anyway'' — I'm sorry, but I think this is oversimplifying. We have [[Imp|screenshots of monsters]] to show what they look like. That doesn't automatically clear the image for anything, so that I could crop it, draw a crown and a goatee, and smack it on my user page with the caption "i am the imperor lololol". Granted, the usage I removed was not totally frivolous like that and related peripherally to the encyclopedia content, but that was the principle. Strictly speaking, if it came to a legal filing, the hosting and embedding could be contested individually. If I make 20 copies of a CD and put them in my closet and don't tell anyone about them, that's still a violation. Following Wikipedia, we generally ignore that point and host images locally if they have at least one agreed-upon mainspace use, because external images would be a thousand times more troublesome. [[User:Ryan W|Ryan W]] 16:30, 16 March 2014 (UTC) Summary: All contributions to DoomWiki.org are considered to be released under the CC BY-SA 4.0 International (see Doom Wiki:Copyrights for details). By contributing, you agree to be bound by the Terms of Use. Your changes will be visible immediately. Please enter a summary of your changes above. Do not submit copyrighted images or text without permission! This includes text taken from in-game codices or logbooks, or from official instruction manuals, strategy guides, and other such books. 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