Category talk:Levels with optional keys

Speedrunning antics

Such a category is an interesting idea, but where are we going to draw the line? At least E1M4: Command Control (Doom), MAP14: The Inmost Dens (Doom II) and MAP31: Pharaoh (TNT: Evilution) can be finished without any keys, so those levels have unnecessary keys as well.

This lists levels where one or more keycards or skull keys give access to optional areas? --Jartapran (talk) 12:38, 10 March 2016 (CST)

Those keys of the maps you've listed above was meant to be crucial and essential by original authors. This category surely lists keys to open secrets and optional areas (I couldn't give the category a better name, heh). --MtErebus (talk) 13:28, 10 March 2016 (CST)

I like the change you made to the description and don't ask for other changes. --Jartapran (talk) 13:42, 10 March 2016 (CST)

I'd argue that E1M4, at least, should be included.  The yellow key is a shortcut, like the shortcut pushwalls in Wolfenstein that only open from one side.  To skip it, all you must do is backtrack.  Large sequence breaks like TNT MAP31 are another matter.  I suppose this might be unclear for third-party maps, which are sometimes disorganized, but for stock maps I'd wager the choice will be obvious in nearly all cases.    Ryan W (talk) 17:08, 10 March 2016 (CST)

There is grave danger in assuming author intent w/o an authoritative source to reference. --Quasar (talk) 22:13, 10 March 2016 (CST)

One question: "levels where one or more keycards or skull keys are used to open secret and optional areas": should there be an 'only' in there? What if a key is used to open both the way to the exit and also an optional area? --Gez (talk) 05:29, 11 March 2016 (CST)

Agree! If a key opens an exit (or is essential for the walkthrough) it shouldn't be in this category, regardless of for what else it's needed. --MtErebus (talk) 05:49, 11 March 2016 (CST)

What about MAP19: The Citadel (Doom II)? Three keys, all used for the exit, but only two are required to exit. Was it the author's intention that all three keys are required? Can we be sure? -- Shambler (talk) 07:49, 11 March 2016 (CST)

Yes, but all the three keys in that level are only used to open the exit, not the secrets (all the three corners of the map where these keys are located will count in the intermission, though). --MtErebus (talk) 08:01, 11 March 2016 (CST)

Alternate proposal

Would this work better as a list instead of a category?  A category is either ON or OFF, and awkward to annotate or cite.  We already see there can be ambiguity even for stock maps.  Per Quasar's remark, this probably falls under original research and needs a structure where these details can be spelled out, encompassing all the gray areas above.  (Indeed, a few cases could have citations — we've all seen mappers post 9-paragraph screeds explaining every texture and clip placement.)

For a self-aggrandizing example, consider Category:Levels with reject exploits vs Blind spots in Doom reject tables.  Reducing each of those paragraphs to an ON or OFF decision would remove a lot of information, and not really allow the reader to decide what's practical for their own playing proficiency.  Also, it's much easier for someone to come along later, improve the analysis, and modify the prose (well, someone who enjoys solid geometry computations).    Ryan W (talk) 15:52, 11 March 2016 (CST)