Doom Wiki:Central Processing

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This is the central discussion forum for wiki editing and administration activity on the Doom Wiki. Feel free to ask any questions or pose any concerns you have here, and you should receive a response shortly. Check the archived discussions for older threads. For extended discussion on long-range "to do" issues and project planning, please also visit our Request For Comment hub.

Archived discussions


Broken links to doomedsda.us[edit]

We don't know the exact volume (Wayback Machine scrapes files occasionally) but anecdotal evidence is discouraging.  Here, for example, 8 of 8 links have expired.

AIUI a complete solution requires further web development, but here are some band-aid ideas.  I will be glad to implement them if people agree, excepting #4 which might be too large:

  1. Temporarily invoke Template:Frozenlink within Template:Dsdaftp, with hover text directing readers to the generic DSDA item in "External links"
  2. When Template:Dsdauser and Template:Dsda2user are used together, and the first represents 100% redundant content, remove it (example)
  3. Hope that archive.org re-enables deeplinking when their bandwidth issues subside, and retarget certain links there (example).  While not my primary goal, that feature WAS WORKING the day I tested it
  4. Peripheral mass edits to reduce 404s:
    (a) Replace bare links to zip files with Template:Dsdaftp, so any remediation propagates automatically
    (b) Update links of the form [http://doomedsda.us Doomed Speed Demos Archive] above map record tables
    (c) Remove the dummy string {{competnftp|**|**}}.  Now that pwad records have rolled out, such links are vanishingly unlikely to be used
    (d) List invalid Wayback Machine links generated by Template:Dsda, Template:Dsdauser, and Template:Dsdauserp (example)
    (e) List usages of Template:Archived link containing bare links to doomedsda.us

P.S.  None of this was caused by the automated tasks in the above section, which look great in my limited review so far.  :>  Any feedback or additional proposals appreciated!  Thanks, Ryan W (living fossil) 16:14, 3 January 2021 (CST)

Didn't reply sooner but have been working on this in tandem with the map/WAD records since last year, and I think everything is sufficiently cleaned up.
  1. Templates Dsdauser and Dsdauserp have archive links and are only left on user articles when the user has a reasonable number of demos on the old site (typically only FDA entries) that aren't on the new site, and a user profile (which the new site doesn't support). This covers item 2 above.
  2. Dsdaftp (with archive link) is only still in use for the Plutonia 2 FDA demos. This negates the need for item 1.
  3. All direct file links to old/new sites have been templated (item 4a). This also includes the old ftp://.zip stub and competn.doom2.net links. And also almost all Compet-n links, btw.
  4. Item 4b was covered by the scripted updates, no more external links.
  5. 4c ditto, though there is no working query to confirm that because of the asterisks.
In my experience with archive.org links, there is no need for further effort on items 3, 4d, and 4e. Please let me know of any stragglers. --Xymph (talk) 11:08, 29 July 2022 (CDT)

UAC Handbook[edit]

Hi there. I own a copy of the UAC Handbook second-hand. Not sure where it originates from, but I'm assuming a promo pack for DOOM (2016). As it is a rarity, and as it doesn't appear to be transcribed elsewhere, would it be allowed to be transcribed on this wiki (copyright infringement barring)?

If so, I'd be more than happy to help contribute to a page if one were to be created and initially set up (I'm not entirely sure about the creation and formatting procedures). Also, whilst I don't have the means to scan the booklet, I can take reasonable-quality images if required.\

P.S.: just found this article which may be a good reference to link to in a potential page created on this wiki.

--Rezalon (talk) 03:05, 25 May 2021 (CDT)

That's very interesting and I wasn't even aware it existed prior to this. However as you deduced we can't transcribe the entire booklet due to copyright. We can however describe it thoroughly in text and provide front/back pictures. A full description would be something like Doom instruction manual, or something less in-detail is also of course acceptable. --Quasar (talk) 07:26, 25 May 2021 (CDT)
Done the basics here. Someone else should be able to provide categories and other stuff I'm not fully aware how of adding. --Rezalon (talk) 22:41, 25 May 2021 (CDT)

Should we replace the old Cacoward image with the one seen on Cacoward 2018?[edit]

While browsing Cacoward 2020 looking for "mini mod safari" to search some cool stuff from ZDoom forum, I noticed something different, it seems they replace (or remake) the gold Caco image. So, I go to the previous Cacoward and notice the new Caco was first use in 2018. So should we replace the old Caco with the new one? Because Doom Wiki still use the old one —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lokbustam257 (talkcontribs) .

With links, this is easier to follow: our award image, used in the {{wad}} template, originated here; the new image is here. I'd say that yes, we can update to the current version. Or even, get fancy in the template and use it only from 2018 onwards. --Xymph (talk) 03:08, 8 June 2021 (CDT)
With no further discussion or objection, this is done. --Xymph (talk) 10:03, 23 November 2021 (CST)

How to get article name changed?[edit]

I'm assuming only admins can do this at the moment. If so please hmu on my talk page pls but i'll probs contact an admin Kuresed (talk) 02:41, 30 October 2021 (CDT)

If Relic can send me a private message on Doomworld to confirm this is not someone pulling a prank, I can take care of it. --Xymph (talk) 04:12, 30 October 2021 (CDT)
Reverted, for no response in two weeks. Either this was a prank by an unknown nickname, or it is entirely unimportant to the real Relic, and the rename wasn't necessary after all. --Xymph (talk) 04:50, 13 November 2021 (CST)

DSDA records tables[edit]

Previous discussions here, here, here and here; starting a new topic in case the 2019/2020 topics ever get archived.

After covering Compet-n last year, I (finally) have time/energy/inspiration to turn some long-desired attention to DSDA -- partly prompted by Gauss' recent heroic efforts to manually update/verify map records. The initial version of dsdaMapBot.php is working, but I figured I'd bring up a few choices and caveats before plowing ahead full steam.

  1. In the table header category column, Compet-n tables use "Run", while the skeleton (as generated by DMMPST) used "Style". I will be using "Run" from now on.
  2. Based on Eris Falling's sandbox I'll include NoMo as a main category. Further DSDA categories NoMo 100S, Stroller and Collector go into the Miscellaneous demos section/table if present, otherwise that entire section is omitted. We could also make a different choice, e.g.: include all 12 categories in the main table. Or include the original 8 categories, and the newer 4 only if present. What do you think?
  3. Category 'Other' is ignored, it's just not practical to do anything scripted with that. I am using the only available API endpoint to fetch the record in each category which returns one entry for Other anyway. Further API development is not expected anytime soon.
  4. This also means any manually constructed tables like for Doom E1M1 cannot easily be preserved (unless all categories go into the main table and the Misc section can be left alone). Those are very rare so it's not going to be a problem anyway, as all bot-edits are viewed and manually approved anyway. And see the next point too.
  5. For the 11 WADs covered by Compet-n, it might make sense to also include DSDA tables, but then we need to decide how to structure the (sub)sections for script-wise edits to remain practical, and the 'verified' datestamp unambiguous. So for now I won't be touching these.
  6. The bot updates will also address some of the broken link issues listed above, like the DSDA title, old DSDA templates/bare links, and dummy competnftp templates.
  7. The current script already omits NM100S if the map article's Secrets section has no #-bullet entries, but auto-omitting rows in other situations -- like proposed by Eris Falling -- is going to be difficult. can be accomplished with per-map configuration flags in the .ini files, a variant on the one already in place for maps with secret exits.
  8. The API call does not return any notes, so we could chose to discard the Notes column. Not sure how much existing info we'd lose that way; Gauss recently made a point of noting v1.2 usage for KDiZD demos, but since that is the latest version I'd say this can safely be dropped. There may be more, and useful, examples, but I'll only encounter them once I start crunching WADs.

Any input/votes/opinions? --Xymph (talk) 13:06, 23 November 2021 (CST)

Some thoughts, I might have more later:
  • Regarding point #2, I've seen a few NoMo demos but none from the other categories (at least based on the few WADs I've gone through), so I'd support the suggestion to make NoMo a main category (I imagine with a link to no monsters mode) and leave the others in miscellaneous.
  • Regarding point #8, demos can have notes attached to them (see MAP21 from 1klinecp as an example) but I don't know how those are added in. Also, this particular demo is in the Other category.
  • As an aside, I never include records that have been flagged as dubious. If they are to be added, I feel they should be noted as such in the Notes column. Gauss (talk) 16:45, 23 November 2021 (CST)
The NoMo link is already in, see the 1klinecp map01 example link above. There are notes on non-Other demos too sometimes, but we'd have to find one that is the record to see if it gets returned in the API result before I will be able to include the correct field in the table. And the API returns "the" record for a category so I'd expect dubious ones to be skipped.
Re. #2, I'm leaning towards including everything in the main table, the 4 new categories only if they exist. On DSDA they are all together in the categories list, no distinguishing in two groups, so why should we? And on the wiki, the Misc. demos section can then be used for highlighting manually selected demos that are not a record, like with E1M1. So by default the section would not be present, which reduces stubbiness in map articles. And it solves the scripting trickiness of updating or preserving the Misc section. The datestamp then goes below the main table in "Current records", like for Compet-n. Actually, I can also update those tables to include NoMo if it exists. --Xymph (talk) 04:39, 24 November 2021 (CST)
Some exploring shows that not only the IWADs but also several PWADs like Icarus: Alien Vanguard, Plutonia 2 and Hell Revealed II have maps with Misc.demos sections that were manually compiled (e.g. TAS entries). So the approach outlined above is necessary to permit scripted updates that leave those sections alone, and I'm moving forward on that premise.
Meanwhile the script can do a few more useful things, as illustrated by the latest test updates.
  • Records can be returned by the API because they are cross-listed from another category even if they are not visible in DSDA's default view. The script detects this and adds a note, so now there is a use for that column as yet. The row could be italicized like on DSDA, but that seems excessive here.
  • Players without a wiki page are linked to their DSDA demos list.
  • NoMo, NoMo 100S, Stroller and Collector categories are listed only if there's a record, and the first (or only) occurrence of NoMo is wikilinked.
  • If the main table remains empty, 'data' in "The data was last verified..." refers to nothing, which is a bit odd. In that case, the string becomes "The (absence of) data was last verified..."
  • The "Miscellaneous demos" section is removed if it contains only empty row(s). If it contains a row now moved into the main table, it will have to be deleted manually. If preserved with other manual data, "Demos" in the header is lowercased if necessary, and direct links to the old DSDA site are replaced with {{dsdaftp}} (which itself should eventually point to archive.org, I guess).
I'll probably make further tweaks as I encounter new situations not yet taken into account. Any feedback so far? --Xymph (talk) 10:33, 26 November 2021 (CST)
I've looked at the linked test updates and I like what I see! I don't really have anything to add to the approach already outlined (which I agree entirely with), just a minor suggestion: list NM100S on the table as NM 100S, to better match the style for the other non-NoMo categories (skill level and name of the category separated by a space).
To clarify one doubt that has been raised, I believe dubious/cheated records are not returned by the API, as evidenced by the difference between the default view and the leaderboard view, for example. --Andromeda (talk) 07:42, 27 November 2021 (CST)
Space added (in the script). It was a Compet-n convention, but I found it a tiny bit jarring in DSDA context too.
Yes, the API call returns the Nevanos entry. Thanks. --Xymph (talk) 07:55, 27 November 2021 (CST)
Home stretch: Heretic and Hexen support were added, as well as skipping NM 100S if there are no secrets, and everything except UV speed/pacifist if there are no monsters either. For maps with secret exits the second occurrence of the relevant categories (UV speed, NM speed, Pacifist, NoMo, Stroller, and the Heretic/Hexen skills) is not wikilinked -- also added to the Compet-n script.
For the WADs added today, the demo tables have already been generated along with Heretic's first episode, and everything looks ready to (rock 'n) roll. --Xymph (talk) 15:32, 28 November 2021 (CST)
A feature I'd like to see in the future would be tables for movie runs, like on the Hell Revealed page. Nonetheless it's nice to see this being rolled out for the level pages at long last, thanks for the effort in automating this! --Andromeda (talk) 09:31, 19 December 2021 (CST)

← ← ←
The initial pass to update map pages is complete (I think), apart from the 11 WADs that already have Compet-n record tables. Here a second, DSDA section can be added as was already done manually long ago for one map. From the perspective of sections within the page, it would then make sense to rename "Current records" to "Current Compet-n records". However, that requires also updating the anchors in the map links on mapper pages. While all this can be mostly done script-wise, it's still quite a lot of work for 118 compet-n players. So, any agreement/disagreement about this approach?

After that, adding episode/DxAll runs to WAD pages is also on my to-do list, but it may take a (long) while before I'll get around to it. --Xymph (talk) 05:24, 22 February 2022 (CST)

DSDA records were added yesterday to all map pages for the 11 Compet-n WADs, and the Compet-n headers/anchors updated. --Xymph (talk) 02:57, 25 February 2022 (CST)

← ← ←
Daily wiki activity finally slowed down enough again to resume and finish development of the movie run records script, and all WAD articles for which they exist have now been updated with the table. Please let me know if you find any errors. This applies in particular for non-standard Doom II episodes. Normally, episodes 1/2/3 contains MAPs 01-10/11-20/21-30 but sometimes a WAD defines its own (smaller) episodes, and then the DSDA episode records cover those smaller map ranges. So far I've found this to be true for The Alfonzone, Judgment, Scythe X, and Valiant. If I missed any, please let me know as well so the script can be improved.

One more note about map records: some maps have one secret that is "impossible to miss" (e.g. the first or last sector the player has to move through). This implies categories NM 100S and NoMo 100S are identical to NM speed and NoMo, respectively. But I don't know if DSDA considers the categories equivalent in such cases, and drops one (presumable the latter). So this is not handled automatically in the dsdaMapBot script, like it drops NM 100S if there are no secrets. This may change upon feedback. --Xymph (talk) 05:46, 29 July 2022 (CDT)

Essentials of a map page?[edit]

I was wondering if there are any special requirements needed to be able to fill a page on a map and have it removed from the map stubs category. One of my long term goals is to populate/expand the pages of my favorite maps (especially 1994 WADs) and I was wondering what is considered necessary for a page to not be a stub. When I write for a map stub, I tend to focus on: 1. walkthroughs 2. gallery and 3. descriptions. Thanks to the monumental efforts of Getsu Fune, a good number of maps already have their secrets completed; adding the secrets plus the points I mentioned is what I, personally, would consider as a well filled page. - Endless01 (talk) 03:50, 7 February 2022 (CST)

I also consider the walkthrough to be vital for "de-stubbing", not least because it puts the other parts of the article (points of interest, secrets, screenshots) in context. Gauss (talk) 04:59, 7 February 2022 (CST)
I'm using the rules enforced by the destubMaps and restubMaps bot scripts, which I run occasionally (as they take a long time). So you don't need to actively worry about forgetting to destub sometimes. --Xymph (talk) 05:54, 7 February 2022 (CST)

Mapping themes[edit]

I was thinking about some ideas for future articles around Mapping themes. Now that we have a few, it's a great start that and, I think, helps readers tremendously, especially when the maps are categorized correctly with their specific theme. It's often a bit difficult to find specific maps, so this is a great way to organize maps.

I was thinking in the future, we could create articles for the following topics:

  • Outdoors/Nature/Landscape map (I'm not sure which term is more suitable, so I put those three for the moment).
  • Horror map
  • Winter/Snow map
  • Desert map
  • Cyberpunk map
  • Space map
  • Castle/Fortress map
  • Industrial map
  • Heaven map
  • Surreal map
  • Plutonia-esque/Plutonia styled map

Of course, some of these could be considered subtropes. For example snowy and desert can be part of outdoors/nature/landscape, and this can also have more subtropes, like the Egyptian map being a subtrope of the Desert map, etc.

This, of course, would be a long term goal with contributions from anyone here.

Oh, and I was also planning to create a main article for Mapping themes, and put some concepts about it, design tips and the list of themes. That way users can search for the main article in the searchbar, and fall into the rabbit hole of mapping themes ;)

What do you think? What other themes could be added? - Endless01 (talk) 01:07, 23 March 2022 (CDT)

The themes I was thinking of doing to round things up are:
  • E3 style (just because there are E1, E2, and E4 styles)
  • Gothic map (think Gothic DM, Crucified Dreams, and perhaps also stuff like Crusades and maybe also some of Hexen)
  • Medieval map (think Heretic E1 towns and anything else that seeks to depict a medieval Europeanish aesthetic -- by opposition to Egyptian/Mesoamerica themes or the modern look of City maps)
  • Space map (Vrack & co, anything set up on a spaceship or space station)

Other themes that may work are:

  • Asian (or East-Asian) map. For stuff with a Chinese/Japanese/Korean aesthetic, like Japanese Valentines for example.
  • Cyberspace map. Stuff that emulates visiting a cybernetic environment, like some of the Hacx maps but also VR: The Internet Machine or MAP31: Cyberwar 7734.
  • Flesh map/Meat map (think Cyb's Freaky Colonoscopy, or MAP20: The Mouth of Madness and its followups)
  • Scaled map/shrunken player map: maps that depict gigantic versions of normally smaller objects. Like rat solitaire or some of the maps from Mandrill Ass Project.
  • Plutonia style (to go along with the episode styles, and it's a popular one -- more than TNT style)

--Gez (talk) 09:55, 23 March 2022 (CDT)

Doom 3 screenshots[edit]

Some screenshots from Doom 3 are of a low quality and resolution. Two questions:

  • Is this a copyright issue or something similar, or can those screenshots be replaced with better ones?
  • Is it okay to use BFG Edition screenshots when the difference is minimal? (For example, in weapon pages.)

--Kyano (talk) 17:10, 10 April 2022 (CDT)

Which ones, for example? Define 'low' and 'better'?
There are some guidelines re. image quality, but I see plenty 640x480 Doom 3 screens in our archive, and that is not too low, if that's what you mean. Their purpose is to illustrate encyclopedic information about games, not to show off stuff in glorious 2560x1440 or what have you. Such screens merely take up more disk space than necessary (and we're starting to run low). I'd limit replacements to something like 800x600 - 1440x900.
But yes, a screenshot can be replaced by a similar scene under the same {{Doom 3 screenshot}} license. A different scene is probably better added as a new screenshot. As for the BFG Edition, I don't know. --Xymph (talk) 03:26, 12 April 2022 (CDT)
For example File:Chainsaw_d3.jpg is of a very low resolution and has dark lighting, making the details of the weapon very hard to see. I have seen several images that are similar in quality. Also, I disagree that low resolution screenshots are good enough for Doom 3; because of the dark setting of the game, many things are hard to make out at low resolutions. Doom screenshots on the other hand usually have high contrast and weapons, monsters, etc are much easier to see. I am not saying that we should be uploading 4K png files for the reasons that you have mentioned, but 1080p screenshots should be acceptable.
I asked about BFG Edition because it works better on modern machines and it would make it easier for me and others to take screenshots. --Kyano (talk) 05:40, 12 April 2022 (CDT)
Yeah, that one and similar tiny shots can be replaced. I suppose there is precedent for 1920x1080 too, as long as reasonably sized (but smaller) shots aren't replaced just for the sake of that resolution (which take up 800-1500 KB each). Lack of disk space will become a real problem eventually, given the absence of response to calls for a Linux admin to help Quasar with server maintenance and (eventually) migration.
If BFG/original edition differences are minimal, I guess such shots are acceptable, but I'd really punt this topic to someone more knowledgeable about it. --Xymph (talk) 06:46, 12 April 2022 (CDT)

Question about protocol for editing a page that's about me[edit]

Hi! I used to go by a different handle and noticed that there is a page about me that uses my old handle and I would like to update it. The problem is, someone else has also used this handle and a couple maps are included on the page that were by that other person. The page in question is https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Nomad

I contributed to all of the projects mentioned except the two maps in A.L.T., and was not the Nomad involved in "Clan [B0S]." but otherwise the information is accurate. As I noted, I'd like to update this with my new information (as well as potentially some new map contributions) but I don't want to just erase the other Nomad's information. What should I do in this situation? Annunakitty (talk) 16:51, 18 May 2022 (CDT)

The correct and simple solution is a new mapper article with your works. --Xymph (talk) 11:27, 19 May 2022 (CDT)
Yo! Thanks so much! I see you added my ASS maps too, thanks again :) Annunakitty (talk) 12:36, 19 May 2022 (CDT)

What about gkrellflynn?[edit]

It’s a krell for gkrellm (a graphical side monitor) that show Flynn’s head. The more the processors work, the more Flynn’s head is injured. Where should be categorized an article about it? Ducon (talk) 13:26, 26 July 2022 (CDT)

Playtester category[edit]

Some playtesters in the Doom community do a lot of work to ensure maps are decently balanced and playable. While their portfolio of work may not be to the same degree as mappers, modders or source port authors, I feel that there should be a place where prominent playtesters could be added, in recognition of their contributions.

You may want to sign yourself, Gibbon ;) But ill just repeat what i said on Discord. I agree, some playtesters do a lot of good and useful work in the community. But if this is your only credit, it is a little bit thin, in my opinion. --Redneckerz (talk) 17:15, 12 August 2022 (CDT)
I think the main distinction is that mappers, artists, coders create something, while play/code-testers "merely" help them to improve/debug those creations. Their contributions are of value to projects, sure, but I feel that there is little value to the wiki in listing these contributions here too. The projects' documentation should do that, and wiki cannot and should not need to completely cover every little detail too. Notability, however hard to define, remains an important factor for the wiki.
Also, given the wide variety of completeness and formatting in said documentation, and in the release process of many projects, it is already challenging enough to track mapping/artist/etc work on the wiki. So whatever the outcome of this discussion, personally I won't be investing any effort into tracking testing work too. --Xymph (talk) 06:43, 19 August 2022 (CDT)

Thing data tables[edit]

This is a follow-up to the original topic in 2016. The welcome slow pace w.r.t. new PWADs in recent weeks finally allowed me to resume development of my INFO.c tools. The planned implementation of generating the information in wiki-ready tables (using the same templating approach as in DMMPST) now works for DMINFO, and various samples are collected here. In comparison with the existing tables you'll notice some fields don't have a value, that is because some cannot be determined from the INFO.c and related data (alone), but the tool takes creating the tables for monsters, weapons, and items as far as it'll go automatically. The remainder will have to be added manually, as usual, and thus no additions/updates will happen via a XymphBot script.

The same is planned for the Heretic one (HTINFO), and then for Hexen and Strife where plenty thing data tables don't exist yet. I'll certainly encounter some unexpected situations there (because of the variety in weapon and monster behavior/data) but bridges can be crossed one at a time.

Changes versus the existing tables:

  1. The layout of the three monster tables/columns is now done with standard col templates instead of the custom table that made the whole thing more complex to edit manually.
  2. The thing type, mobj/enum, appears-in fields are now consistently present in that order, usually first in the table. Only for weapons they are, as before, preceded by the weapon-specific data. Should the three rows go first there too?
  3. In 2016 we discussed showing the flags field in hex and/or decimal, and it (finally) occurred to me that the simple solution is to list both on separate lines in that cell (not comma-separated in one line).
  4. I've merged the flags list table for monsters into the main table as I didn't see a real need to keep it a separate table, and the layout is cleaner this way. Description lengths vary, but it shouldn't be problem to have in them the right column of the main table.
  5. The flags field/list are now included in the weapon/item tables too. Is that okay?
  6. The weapon Sound row moved below the Sprite row, that seems a more logical order.

Please share your answers/feedback on the above. --Xymph (talk) 12:38, 11 September 2022 (CDT)

The silence is deafening. Anyone? Anyone? Gez? ;-)

All four tools are now ready to emit templated tables; samples of various thing types are here. Data may be incomplete (or even incorrect) because not everything can be determined from static data tables alone. More complex monster/boss/weapon behavior will always need manual work to describe completely.

I am still undecided on how detailed the Appears-in field should become. Since Hexen's DDC expansion is a separate IWAD (as are both parts of Final Doom), the current approach is to treat the extra maps/episodes not in the original registered/commercial release for the other series as separate expansions too. This was done by saving Ultimate E4, SSR E4-5, the D64 LL and VetEd maps into separate 'IWAD' files. The result is in the appearances table, and in the INFO tools this was easy to code.

For Doom in particular that means a lot of lines. So the second row there is a manual summary in fewer lines. The series sections below that table list single-player occurrences of all things in those (I)WADs, but in many cases a thing that occurs in the original release also occurs in the corresponding expansion. However, it would be the exceptions that make coding correct summaries more complex. E.g. Doom's lite goggles are not in Plutonia, so the "Doom II/Final Doom" should become "Doom II/TNT". For other game series more exceptions exist.

So what do you think, is it meaningful to detail occurrences in expansions separate from the original release like currently done? Or is it worth additional effort to condense the entries from the perspective of better presentation of information?

Also, any feedback on the included fields, their ordering, and formatting? One little change since my initial post above is the use of the {{c}} template around the Flags hex/dec values. It seems excessive to do that with, for example, all sprite/sound lump names or Enum strings though.

This is a kind of "speak now or hold your peace forever" week, for once I start updating tables I would hate to retread and change something as yet. After the summer of 2016 this will be second time to make pass over all thing data tables, and I do intend it to be my last one. --Xymph (talk) 12:44, 19 September 2022 (CDT)

Well, I don't have much to say.
  1. fine. It's not like I could think of reasons not to use the standard col templates.
  2. Yeah, it might be more consistent? Of course there are special cases such as weapons that don't have a thing type (e.g. fists), weapons that have three thing types (Hexen ultimates), weapons that share a thing type (Heretic normal/powered up, or Strife crossbow/grenade launcher/mauler) and the Sigil is a mess. Might make sense, then, to have weapon data in a separate table, just lik monsters have a separate table for their ranged attack.
  3. Is the decimal value useful for DEHACKED? I suppose it is, otherwise I don't see the point of having it at all, but I suppose it doesn't hurt.
  4. That makes sense.
  5. That is okay but see #2.
  6. That's fine.
Finally, looking at the appearance table for Heretic, it seems the only difference between the episode 2-3 column and the episode 4-5 column is D'Sparil and his teleport spots, which by the way is my prog rock band name so maybe making this distinction is not very useful. But again, I guess it doesn't hurt and Doom gets to have a whopping eight columns so Heretic would look sad if it was reduced to two columns. --Gez (talk) 16:39, 20 September 2022 (CDT)
Re. split weapon table, that thought crossed my mind some time ago, but then I forgot to explore it. Makes a lot sense now that I updated the samples. For non-projectile attacks, the right table will be shorter, but it is still worthwhile. I even added the flags for spawned Mobjs, but that may be overkill. What do you think? For more complex weapons, multiple tables in the right column will be needed; bridges to cross...
Re. decimal flags, yes, see the original 2016 discussion, where Quasar wrote: "The original logic behind decimal flags values is because of how DeHackEd displayed them, yes. I would rather have the value in both bases".
Earlier I made a subtle change to the frames with square brackets around the animation letters, to stand apart from the parenthesized state string. Hmm, regrouping these two rows into a separate table would probably be clearer. Will explore that.
In the weapon data, the changed order of shots/min, velocity, damage follows a more logical action/effect flow.
Re. appearances, for Hexen too everything except Korax, Reiver and a few keys occurs in the expansion too. So I feel it is better to summarize the rows for Doom and both H's. Only Strife has more significant diffs between VetEd and original game, so there the distinction still makes sense.
Any further questions/remarks/suggestions? --Xymph (talk) 14:09, 21 September 2022 (CDT)
Previously the weapon tables mixed weapon attributes into the ranged attack table. That has now been remedied, and the state/sprite/frame data is presented much clearer in its own table. Quite happy with how this turned out.
So again, any (final) questions/remarks/suggestions? --Xymph (talk) 11:06, 22 September 2022 (CDT)
The other day I chatted on #doomwiki with Quasar, who is also okay with the updates to the data tables. So, off I go... --Xymph (talk) 07:13, 26 September 2022 (CDT)
And two months later, I think I got everything for the four main games (phew). There are a few loose ends, such as the player speed that is elaborately defined for Doom, and which for the other three games I'll happily leave to a specialist. I'm also unsure how the maulotaur charge damage is calculated, so left the existing values. Otherwise, hope I didn't make any mistakes, but they can be addressed the normal wiki way when they are discovered. I'm still planning a brief afterburner for the unique Doom 64 things using relevant parts of the the DOOM64-RE codebase. (Shouldn't that get its own wiki article, Redneckerz?). But apart from that, it's a wrap. :-) --Xymph (talk) 05:49, 28 November 2022 (CST)

What does the type= parameter do?[edit]

Hi there. I wanted to create a new article but i don't know enough about the syntax used for editing. Specifically, what does the type= parameter do? I couldn't find any documentation about that on the Mediawiki page. I've seen type=e, type=m & type=l all used in the source code for most articles on wads in the section relating to the titlepic at the very beginning, but they seem to have no effect on the displayed page itself. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gregor (talkcontribs) .

Selects the primary categorization. For example "e" equals Episode WADs, "m" equals Megawads. I do not know the full list of values myself as I did not design the template. --Quasar (talk) 22:00, 12 October 2022 (CDT)
Looking deeper, the full list of values is on the page - {{Wad}}, listed under "type: General type. The template will attempt to auto-categorize based on this; the default is a general PWAD without maps." --Quasar (talk) 22:02, 12 October 2022 (CDT)
To clarify the distinction, type= therefore is not basic MediaWiki syntax, but part of a template. Templates are extensively used here to ensure consistency, avoid repetition of basic wiki code, and make our lives easier. Most templates come with explanations/instructions. In the edit window, the list of templates used in the page/section is shown below the Preview/Save buttons. When previewing an edit, any categories (explicit ones or generated by templates) are at the bottom of the page. --Xymph (talk) 02:06, 13 October 2022 (CDT)
Thanks for the clarification! Gregor (talk)

Gamepedia links[edit]

Since the Hell-site bought out Gamepedia we have a ton of lingering links to formerly decent sites that still haven't been addressed. I think we should try searching/finding all these and re-evaluate which are really needed and what can be purged or replaced. While we're at it we could do the same for any remaining w:c: interwikis, which I'm starting to sour on the idea of having any of those left either (a few exceptions were made, especially for Chex Quest, previously during the migration cleanup). --Quasar (talk) 19:09, 19 October 2022 (CDT)

I'm in, this list (two entries already fixed) helps a little. Scripted searches, including direct database queries (like here), can do a lot more. I'd need to know which patterns to search for besides 'w:c:'. An initial script for the latter is done and produces 50 hits in all namespaces. --Xymph (talk) 04:48, 20 October 2022 (CDT)
I haven't seen any Gamepedia entry in the Interwiki list. So any gamepedia link we have is not an interwiki link but a hard link. --Gez (talk) 18:00, 20 October 2022 (CDT)
A couple of them became redirected domain names; this was the case for the Zelda Wiki - when they moved to Gamepedia, they sold their domain name to Gamepedia. Bad move since it now belongs to the Hell-site! They're using a new one now, which is the one to which I changed it over. Not sure how to find these other than going down the list and manually looking for them. grimaces --Quasar (talk) 14:26, 21 October 2022 (CDT)

New affiliate[edit]

I was contacted by the folks at the new Independent Fallout Wiki which is currently in register-only "early access" and will be going full public soon and they want to do the full affiliate thing like we have w/NIWA and Quake Wiki. They've already got things setup on their end to my satisfaction (Wiki Node style affiliates page with our logo and link, and footer links on community pages). I'll be adding them to our Node, main page footer (may require some retooling yet again), and setting up an interwiki. We definitely have some places that Fallout links are appropriate, with the Easter eggs in Doom '16 and the extensive Doom references in FSO (which they're also sending me some resources regarding so I can possibly add more info about that). --Quasar (talk) 20:52, 29 October 2022 (CDT)

I happened to be around in #doomwiki two days ago when one of their (presumably) admins came looking for contact info. We had a pleasant chat and I was able to point them in your general direction. Good that they liberated themselves. --Xymph (talk) 02:50, 30 October 2022 (CDT)
There's also a couple of "Creation Club" content for FO4 mentioned in Doom references in other games that it would be nice to turn into links if they have dedicated articles. Just out of laziness, I'd rather have the template named {{fowiki}} or {{fallout}} instead of {{falloutwiki}}, though. :p --Gez (talk) 18:26, 30 October 2022 (CDT)
I changed that, good time for it since it's not used quite yet. --Quasar (talk) 14:22, 31 October 2022 (CDT)

New funding method[edit]

Adding to excitement Manc dropped a new Patreon as he wants to get the finances fully in order before we move forward with server migrations/upgrades. The left-hand column has thus grown a bit with a new option. --Quasar (talk) 14:20, 31 October 2022 (CDT)

Info on monsters' states[edit]

Recently wiki pages on monsters and adjacent expanded to cover things like animation frames. However one of the most important data pieces, duration is missing. Things like how long does it take for monster to fire aren't covered at all, and neither is info on how long does every step take (Although at least that one specifies speed in units per second). Should this perhaps be specified? --ViolentBeetle (talk) 14:49, 17 November 2022 (CST)

See Thing_data_tables, "speak now or hold your peace forever" week happened in September. --Xymph (talk) 15:07, 17 November 2022 (CST)
I wouldn't object forever to addition of more information but it would have to be universally applied consistently and proven correct beforehand. For various reasons I don't feel like attack state durations would fit here very well though because they can rely on things like action functions calling P_Random etc. If someone wanted I'd be more ready to support them creating a separate table with that kind of information. --Quasar (talk) 10:07, 18 November 2022 (CST)
When I wrote that I was a little miffed at process changes being proposed while 90% of the process was already done. But I also wrote it somewhat provocatively, knowing full well it isn't the "wiki way" to stifle discussion. So I'm not surprised someone kicked in on that aspect. ;-) But I was primarily referring to my last paragraph of September 19, in that I really don't want to go over several hundred pages (or dozens if just the monsters) for a third time. Also, to me the original post was too vague about exactly what info to add where in which layout. But if that would be hashed out in further discussion, I certainly wouldn't be stifling it - just perhaps staying away from it. --Xymph (talk) 12:39, 18 November 2022 (CST)
Def understandable :) --Quasar (talk) 12:42, 18 November 2022 (CST)

Map links don't autogenerate map stubs[edit]

I was just wondering why the map links in the Knee-Deep in Knee-Deep in ZDoom article as of yet haven't auto-generated the usual map stubs? The article is out for a while and the wad contains quite a lot changes to the layout of the original KDiZD plus different secret locations, so separate map articles are very much justified. I'm just curious if there's a problem with data extracting process. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gregor (talkcontribs) .

It's not a fully automated process as far as I'm aware. I'm sure it's on somebody's radar. --Quasar (talk) 22:03, 21 November 2022 (CST)
There's nothing autonomous about XymphBot, not sure why people keep thinking that. It is a bot account so its many edits do not clutter Recent Changes (unless you choose to Show them), but especially map articles creation takes a lot of human preparation/time on the .ini file, map views, and the actual script runs. I backburned KDiKDiZD because:
  1. with four builds (oh, a fifth one came out since the article was created) it is evidently in a state of flux. Projects shouldn't be added to the wiki until they are released. Originally that meant an idgames archive release, but with so many forum-only releases picking up Cacowards in the past decade, that was loosened to include release candidates (RC) and other releases that have at least been stable for months. Creating map articles and then having to regenerate thing tables and map views upon further betas/builds/fixes/re-releases, is a pain I have had to go through way too many times already.
  2. Projects with custom things should have a mapping table before things tables can be generated. Yes, stable projects can get map articles without things tables, but that just means I'll have to revisit them later (more double work). There are nearly 200 examples. Dynamo did fantastic work on a metric ton of TSVs this year, but is currently unavailable.
So there. What you or Sena could do, is to fix the map paths on all the co-author pages, like Gez did in the main article. --Xymph (talk) 02:09, 22 November 2022 (CST)
I guess it's a roundabout compliment that you've made this place so efficient at covering new mods that people think it happens magically now ;) --Quasar (talk) 08:38, 24 November 2022 (CST)

From this conversation I get the impression that if I want to make WAD article, I would just need to make a page for wad and eventually you will fire up a bot to auto-generate pages. Is there a specific template I should follow if I get around making one, or just copy the layout over? --ViolentBeetle (talk) 16:00, 29 November 2022 (CST)

There is no template for WAD overview pages, but of course hundreds of examples exist, so pick a similar one. As noted above however, it needs to have a stable release before I'd start working on it, and, for projects with more than a few custom things, a TSV list. Also, speedmapping projects will not get individual map articles for several reasons. And while the wiki could cover any released WAD, just because it was released doesn't mean it has to get coverage. Some measure of notability would be helpful, although that is notoriously hard to define. See here for some past discussions. --Xymph (talk) 04:44, 30 November 2022 (CST)

Fraction?[edit]

How do i type fractions? The normal way, "1{{frac|1|2}}", doesn't seem to be supported by Doomwiki, nor does 1{{frac|1|1|2}} or 1{{1/2}}. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gregor (talkcontribs) .

I presume you're looking for output similar to 1½ ? I'll try looking up what those template(s) do elsewhere. --Quasar (talk) 23:35, 28 November 2022 (CST)
I've added {{fraction}} which works the same as it does on wikipedia. There's no frac shorthand redirect though because I don't see the point of adding that here as it's older/deprecated on wp. --Quasar (talk) 00:20, 29 November 2022 (CST)
Yes, that was just what i was looking for. Thank you very much! --Gregor (talk) 00:45, 29 November 2022 (CST)