File talk:E2m4wik4.lmp

Minor disclaimer

The original version of this demo was so long that I couldn't test it for compatibility (the maximum size appears to be 3067K in vanilla, 3001K in Doom95).  While I have heard many players say that they can set  -maxdemo 4096  with no problems, and while eventually someone else would have either verified the file or replaced it, I feel as though I should not wait for "eventually" because the testing system is an essentially unmodified XP installation, which I know is very common among our non-editing readers (i.e. the gaming world at large).

There is normally a certain amount of "fat trimming" in these demos anyway, for purely pedagogical reasons, but to get this one under the time limit (3001K ⇔ 365:50 for a solo recording), I modified the route in two illogical ways:

• Getting the blue key before secret #3, so I could kill the demons/spectres from the crooked catwalk instead of the square lift area (like in the HMP demo).  Although I didn't shoot the baron in this case, I did spend quite a bit more time in his line of fire, so I would have preferred to increase my health first.  I estimate that the added risk saved 100-110 minutes.

• The method of killing the baron in the lava pool room is really not very foolproof because any monster can get stuck against the edge of one of the other metal doorways, possibly preventing infighting.  Strictly speaking, I should have visited the bend in the hallway each time I heard a door open to my left, not just each time I heard a monster die, which could easily have added 60-120 minutes to the run.

Ryan W 00:56, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, the demo is too long in the same way an article could be too wordy or expansive for its subject. Who would want to sit through five hours? That's even long for a motion picture, if you know what I mean. A person can get 100%/100%/100% for UV in a good time. I just played through the level and managed 12 minutes with all 100s... and could certainly have done something faster if I were to optimize it (my route was silly).

Anyhow, a demo that was recorded in a port and then does not play in Doom (this demo crashes the engine for me when it is trying to load the 2.5 MB lump) doesn't show that something can be done with the unmodified game. Who is like God? 11:36, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

a demo that was recorded in a port and then does not play in Doom . . . doesn't show that something can be done with the unmodified game.   I entirely agree, but 2.5MB should work according to discussions like [1].  Is there a better way of guessing what size limit would apply to most users?

You are the first person to ever ask me a question about one of these demos, so I don't claim that my approach has withstood deep critical review.  You are of course correct that they are a complete waste of time for anyone with a modicum of playing skill, but that's not the intended audience.    Ryan W 17:22, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, they might, as they show that even with not-so-much maneuvering skill you can achieve the objective. I was only referring to the time (although this can be reduced somewhat using -timedemo or a source port that allows one to change the game speed). One would need a lot of time to see the whole route done. I've watched long demos, but usually of up to two hours or so. In fact, this might be the longest demo I've ever encountered. Maybe there might be some longer online demos by ZDaemon players or the like hanging out on a multiplayer server, but I don't know of any in single-player mode. By the way, it seems to work fine in Chocolate Doom, or at least it starts it up properly.

As for 3 MB demos, I've played with that -maxdemo value, recording demos that never reached that limit, but had not attempted to load huge demos of this caliber. I suspect we're hitting another restriction here, related to loading data at startup, rather than how much memory the engine can use to write a demo lump. I was searching for specific information on the maximum readable size of lumps (or overall data) just now, to see if there is a known explanation. Who is like God? 18:02, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit conflict] That would be a useful discovery, if only because Lump size limit has been a red link for quite a while.  :>   I was told here and here that the limit was 2GB, which seems to make it irrelevant, if the Doomworld thread above is correct about the "memory pool".  Maybe this is a dumb question, but if a size limit per lump were defined within the code itself, how could that explain why my machine loads the demo but yours doesn't?

One would need a lot of time to see the whole route done.   Quite true.  Ideally, a battalion of newbie playtesters would show up and evaluate how constructive that is.  As I don't know where to find such people, I acknowledge that it is somewhat of a logical leap.  (Thus far, I've spared the wiki any detailed explanations of my route planning, which would be *almost* as tedious as the actual demos.   :>     Ryan W 21:41, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Maybe this is a dumb question, but if a size limit per lump were defined within the code itself, how could that explain why my machine loads the demo but yours doesn't?

I think I was doing something wrong earlier or my system was acting up. It does run on my system, using Doom from The Ultimate DOOM. Who is like God? 22:25, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

You know what, Doom95 also plays your demo (or you knew this?). Since that's an out-of-the-box engine version, I'd say the demo is valid (though it might be wise to point out the DOS engine doesn't seem to handle it). Who is like God? 20:49, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I did know that, and I agree.  In the absence of any survey statistics, I further assume that beginning Doom players find it much, much, much easier to obtain and install Doom95 or a modern source port than to obtain and install doom.exe, so Doom95 playback is actually the more relevant of the two.  Therefore, if this demo doesn't work reliably in DOS, feel free to remove that statement from the info page.    Ryan W 21:41, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps (Doom95 does have its problems and DOSBox can work better than it on newer systems), but the wiki's information uses the DOS executable behaviors as the basic skeleton or framework. It's not big deal because Doom95 still abides by most of that, with only a few exceptions (as we see here). Who is like God? 22:06, 7 October 2008 (UTC)