Talk:MAP31: Pharaoh (TNT: Evilution)
Is the red keycard on this map at all? -- Jdowland 15:42, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
- Yes there is a red key. Look at the screenshot. Ducon 15:50, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Reversion of an edit of mine
I yesterday added the bug that the sergeants near the exit don't wake up hence can't be killed. This was reverted by a user called "Verm" who claimed that it's impossible to walk into this area without one of them spotting you, and that "of course" they all wake up if a shot is fired.
This makes me wonder if he's ever actually played this level. I have (using DOOM95.EXE, using DOOM2.EXE with the WADfile renamed, and most recently using Chocolate Doom), and neither of these things have ever happened when I played the level. The only way I've ever managed to wake those sargeants is to turn off clipping and walk in there with them; doing so reveals that the switch which is supposed to uncover their "windows" (the one just past the crossed circle north of here, which also uncovers the switch which opens the exit) in fact doesn't for some reason, so they still can't see out; and a rifle or BFG shot doesn't wake them either (I tried both a few minutes ago).
Hence this is a legitimate bug and should be reinstated. -- 184.108.40.206 21:09, December 27, 2009 (UTC)
- Just tried again, this time on Ultra-Violence. Same results as before; I wasn't seen by the sargeants, either before or after flipping the switch which lowers their "window blinds", nor did firing any weapon wake them. This is a genuine bug. -- 220.127.116.11 21:33, December 27, 2009 (UTC)
Firstly, I will make clear to anyone that reads this, that this is about the original version of this map and not the patched version released by Team TNT that fixes the incorrectly flagged Yellow Key.
Now this is interesting. I have tested this in Doom95, Doomsday and GZDoom. You are right that the switch doesn't uncover their windows in Doom95, but does in the two mentioned source ports. Closer inspection reveals that a few of the Sergeants in one of the windows wake up when they shouldn't; when the player reaches the top of the stairs that lead down to the two large thrones. If one of these crosses the teleporter trigger (which is a pretty much a 100% certainty), they are teleported into the ceiling of one of the alcoves that is lowered (the walls with the lanterns on) by a trigger on the stairs leading to the switch that should unleash the Sergeants. This is allowed to happen because the Doom engine doesn't check whether there is enough room for the object being teleported at the destination.
The presence of the Sergeant in the ceiling of this sector leads to yet another quirk of the Doom Engine; a sector will not lower if solid mobj(s) (i.e a bad guy) on said sector are stuck in the ceiling. The sector will make the lowering sound, but will be stuck until one noclips into the sector and kills the mobj(s) stuck in the ceiling. The interesting thing is that the Sergeant causing this particular sector to become stuck also causes the sectors that "lowers" the windows to allow the Sergeant’s to see out, to get stuck, which is strange and the part I personally, can't explain (i.e it's beyond my limited knowledge).
The reason the Sergeants wake up early in Doom95 is presumably because of a bug/mistake in the maps original nodes that Doom95 and the original Dos engine uses. Doomsday and GZDoom both build their own nodes to use rather than use the original nodes and clearly don't produce the same mistake.
All that said though, I think this bug of sorts shouldn't be re-added to the article until someone with the knowledge to fully explain it comes along to do so. -- Verm, December 27, 2009 (UTC)
Just following up to say that this bug does seem to have been fixed in the patched version of the map. -- Verm, December 27, 2009 (UTC)
- Interesting reply; I wondered why, when going to flip the switch to open the exits, I could see a sergeant stuck in the ceiling nearby. Now I know.
- I would just like to add that I'm playing a version of TNT.WAD that has been patched using the utility from doomgate.de, to remove the yellow-keycard bug, in conjunction with Chocolate Doom as already mentioned; and it would seem that doing this corrects only the yellow-key bug, not this one. Perhaps if I switched to a different Windows port?...
- This definitely needs further investigation from those knowledgeable in the intimate details of the Doom engine. -- 18.104.22.168 02:21, December 28, 2009 (UTC)
The doomgate.de Doom Patcher is not an offical patcher and indeed states that it modifys the IWAD, likely only altering the bit that determines what skill level the key appears on. Team TNT's own patch (Team TNT made Evilution) is a pwad based version of the map that also fixes the nodes issue. -- Verm, December 27, 2009 (UTC)
Pending edits (2014)
The changes that are currently unsolved cause some headache to me. The IP editor removed the content about the Doom Patcher utility. As I'm not an expert on this, I ask whether the deletion was fitting or not. If TeamTNT's PWAD patch fixes both bugs (yellow key and shotgun guy), common sense says that it wouldn't be necessary to include the material about DPu.
As I wrote in the summary, the missing yellow keycard is a bug, but its consequences are critical for the level, why it would be better that it was covered in the walkthrough section instead. In addition, some content, such as the mention of players having found alternative routes to beat the level, simply doesn't fit to the bug section and would be more relevant in the walkthrough, IMO.
- Personally I agree with the anon editor that verbose description of bugs belongs in a Bugs section as that's the precedent set by dozens of other articles. A level's walkthrough should then mention and link to a particular bug in the bugs section when it is significantly affected by it. Restoring the stuff about the patching utility would be entirely appropriate, however. --Quasar (talk) 11:54, 20 May 2014 (UTC)