Preview button[edit]

That would be fair criticism, if it weren't for the fact that preview mode doesn't display the Categories bar. ;)
Now, if this omission could be remedied, then this would indeed help avoid mishaps there in the future. --Xymph (talk) 08:59, 5 March 2016 (CST)

It actually does, at the very bottom below the save button and list of templates.  I'll grant that probably seems counterintuitive at first.    Ryan W (talk) 09:05, 5 March 2016 (CST)
P.S.  Not one, but two open bugs to change this behavior [1] [2], so you're hardly alone.    Ryan W (talk) 09:11, 5 March 2016 (CST)
<looks almost below bottom edge of screen>... oh, there. Well, thanks for the pointer then. --Xymph (talk) 09:29, 5 March 2016 (CST)

Compet-N questions[edit]

Can we count on the UV Max category to be always present? Looking at the article for Doom E2M8, there are pretexts for not having UV Speed, UV Respawn, and Pacifist. In maps without secrets, there's no difference between NM Speed and NM 100S. Some maps are not possible in Tyson (Looper's weird trick to pistol-shoot the head in Icon of Sin hasn't been replicated yet for the Final Doom IWADs). I'm planning something but, to avoid headaches and inefficient code, I need at least one category that will never be missing. Same question for UV Fast. --Gez (talk) 11:44, 20 March 2016 (CDT)

Short answer: UV max is safest given that the current WADs all have it.

I think I see what you're doing; I didn't launch into that because in the current situation, extra links don't give 404s, only lists with zero entries each.  The speedrun community is generally very optimistic about future discoveries (starting with MAP07 pacifist, I believe), so IMO it doesn't hurt to acknowledge such by assuming table-fillers may be just over the horizon.  :>

Anyway, I've never seen documentation of which category is maintained when two are equivalent (the official instructions have contained errors in this regard for a while, and I even exchanged emails with AdamH about them), so probably no category is 100% guaranteed to exist.  This post is just thinking aloud.

E2M8 (perhaps also Heretic E5M8) may be the most limited case, where

  • no secrets are required;
  • 100% kills are necessary to exit (these two together mean UV speed or UV max must be open, but not both);
  • infighting can never result in 100% kills.

I'm sure some mapper has plugged the MAP30 Tyson loophole by simply burying the head a mile below ground.  :D   As you say, that leaves UV -fast... BUT that category is no longer accepted for episode runs using CnDoom [3].  That would make an exception, for instance, of the proposed Boom-compatible WADs which may eventually be added.  Or perhaps AV episodes 2 and 3 are so difficult that no one will go to the extra trouble of using a DOS emulator!

HTH, and thanks for your markup expertise as always.    Ryan W (talk) 13:40, 20 March 2016 (CDT)

Alright, done, what do you think of E2M8: Tower of Babel (Doom) and Template:Competnmap now? (Also, are we really supposed to be using divs instead of colons in talk pages now?) --Gez (talk) 16:57, 20 March 2016 (CDT)
The template appears completely shipshape now, and the "parser data" of E2M8 hasn't exploded.  Fantastic!  Of course I will test further as I run across other applicable maps.
(About the divs, I don't claim to comprehend the underlying issue — something about MediaWiki generating non-standard HTML?  When we reach a supported MediaWiki version I suppose a bug could be filed, assuming manual formatting is still officially sanctioned in the first place.  :>    Ryan W (talk) 15:20, 21 March 2016 (CDT)
P.S.  Yikes, never mind, the issue was noticed in 2006: [4].    Ryan W (talk) 16:01, 21 March 2016 (CDT)
<dl> is a semantic HTML tag which, as per the HTML 5 standard, must be followed by one or more <dt> / <dd> sequences before the closing tag for the dl - it is called a definition list. The abuse of ":", which produces an orphaned dd tag (which is invalid HTML), to produce indentation on MediaWiki talk pages is an extremely unfortunate historical accident caused by lack of anything else suitable. I am neither suggesting nor requiring that we use the divs with class dw-div-dl on talk pages because it's impractical - it IS useful however for indenting your comments if they're going to contain extensive markup like ul lists, because those do not cleanly cooperate with a dl indentation. However, dw-div-dl is required for use in all other namespaces. Invalid HTML is a negative signal for page ranking and can also cause problems for tools that work with the data in an automated fashion. This is why I went to the trouble recently of expunging its use from all templates. --Quasar (talk) 00:47, 22 March 2016 (CDT)
Yeah, that's about what I remembered from prior discussion.  So it's a nonzero (but hopefully small) search rank hit, because user talk pages are indexed.    Ryan W (talk) 16:28, 23 March 2016 (CDT)


Do you not consider our custom text being replaced with text copied from an unreleased game an issue? -- 10:33, 28 April 2016 (CDT)

A loaded question.  In a vacuum, of course I do.  In this specific case:
  • the newbie will likely get blocked (persistent refusal to discuss), giving others ample time to review and salvage any legit additions;
  • I know nothing about Doom (2016) other than its title and publisher, so I couldn't fill gaps left by undoing the recent edits/uploads;
  • in two weeks we'll be flooded with INFORMED input anyway, so it will come out in the wash; and
  • the current content presumably improves search rank in the meantime.
When Doom 3 was released on Xbox, we saw very similar newbie editing.  The site didn't explode (although as you've noted, some of that material remains unpolished to this day).  You'll have to forgive me for acknowledging community consensus, i.e. copyright concerns are of marginal priority, very rarely grounds for swift action.    Ryan W (talk) 17:54, 28 April 2016 (CDT)
All fair enough points (except the consensus about rights issues one, I have to still fight against that as much as it sucks). However as I mentioned on IRC this was prompted by a misunderstanding/bit of a rash "oh shit!" moment and I have my regrets so I apologize here as well for jumping in your direction; I won't assume you're active just because I saw an edit 10 minutes ago, I tend to forget not everybody goes on the 6-hour editing binges like I do ;) --Quasar (talk) 19:56, 28 April 2016 (CDT)